Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
On the list of things we should think about, according to Paul,
how does the doctrine of eternal damnation fair?
Supposing for a moment, that it is true, and honest and just, is it pure? Perhaps there is pureness to writhing cursing vile despondent creatures agonizing without hope and without respite, but it’s a bit hard to verify. How about lovely? I’d have to say lovely is out! Of good report? No. Is there any virtue? Well, they will never improve, or benefit. It would be difficult to ascribe virtue to this situation would it not? Certainly nothing I’d like to take part in. Any praise? You decide.
So even if the doctrine of Eternal Damnation is true, we are commanded not to think about it.
Lu 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
This is something we can think on. First of all it’s true! Completely true! Good tidings of great joy which SHALL be to ALL people. Yeah! Unto you is born a savior which is Christ the Lord!
Whoo hoo!
It’s true and honest, it is just, and pure…. Most definitely lovely and it is the best report, not lacking in virtue and worthy of endless praise!
How is it that the gospel of today includes the damnation of most of mankind? No one, according to this “gospel” will be untouched by the eternal torment which if escaped personally, will certainly capture and destroy some of those who are loved by those who escape. Why did the angel say it is good news of great joy which shall be to all people? Those who teach eternal damnation would have to agree that it isn’t good news of great joy for some. In fact it isn’t good news of great joy for the myriads who are getting swallowed up in judgment, and for the remainder, who escape but are bereaved of so many that they love, it would surely be less than joyful to see the horrendous fate that their less fortunate loved ones are being subjected to. Bad news of unutterable terror and grief would better describe it.
So being objective, I either have to rule out the truth part of the angels proclamation and therby rule out the proclamation as something I can think about, or rule out the truth part of the doctrine of eternal damnation, which then makes it even less qualified to think about according to Php 4:8.
How shall I deal with this dilemma?
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Here is a Scripture I have put forward a few times . . . explain the kindness and pruning . . . I know it - like anything - and be "wrested" to fit somehow . . . but try to read it in context, with the full force of intent:
2 Thess 1:6 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to RECOMPENCE TRIBULATION to them that trouble you; 7 And to you whoare troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."
This actually says "Vengeance" . . . THIS Scripture, at least, is ALL BAD for the bad people, and ALL GOOD for those that have suffered at their hands.
God takes vengeance . . . and, yes, it is a noble, just thing . . . "a righteous thing" . . . So . . . it fits your Scripture too.
"Good tidings of great joy which SHALL be to ALL people. Yeah! Unto you is born a savior which is Christ the Lord!"
Savior of all men . . . 1 Timothy 4:10 . . . 1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."
"Saviour of the world" . . . you claim this means He has to save everyone to hold this title, but this is false.
There was another who was a "Savior of the World":
Genesis 41:45 "And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah"
Many believe the name to mean "Savior of the World" which has at least as much going for it as other translationss, and fully fits his role as a royal title.
Joseph was a "Savior of the World" . . . He had the purpose, the charter, the resources, the honor . . . YET - still - when the sun set ONLY those who came got saved . . . the rest died. Or, to say it in another way:
o ALL could be saved
o ALL were intended to be saved
o ALL that came were saved
o ALL that survived the famine were saved by Joseph
o the ENTIRE WORLD that survived was saved by him
It was a title he could hold in all legal fullness.
Here is a Scripture I have put forward a few times . . . explain the kindness and pruning . . . I know it - like anything - and be "wrested" to fit somehow . . . but try to read it in context, with the full force of intent:
What exactly do you see here that contradicts what I've been saying?
Many believe the name to mean ...
Argumentum ad populum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges, "If many believe so, it is so."
This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to the people, argument by consensus, authority of the many, and bandwagon fallacy, and in Latin by the names argumentum ad populum ("appeal to the people"), argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans"). It is also the basis of a number of social phenomena, including communal reinforcement and the bandwagon effect, the spreading of various religious and anti-religious beliefs, and of the Chinese proverb "three men make a tiger".
I don't know anyone except you, who believes that Joseph is the Saviour of the World, let alone the Saviour of All "especially those that believe".
The concept of Jesus being Saviour of all is more than just a name. It is affirmed in the Word of God in hundreds of texts.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
I'd love to put a hundred more here, but I know how much you hate when I do that.
What exactly do you see here that contradicts what I've been saying?
I may be misunderstanding you . . . explain to me how the Scriptures I quoted fit, allowing you to "think on these things".
I don't know anyone except you, who believes that Joseph is the Saviour of the World
Jerome put that forward, and his opinions have been echoed by others. As such he is a type of Jesus . . . I, for one, have heard lots of sermons showing that.
You become more credible when you are willing to deal with the fundamental points being made instead of batting down any number of side issues.
Just as Joseph had a charter to deliver the known world from starvation, so Jesus is chartered to save all men from perishing. None are excluded from the intent, provision is made for all, all that come are saved . . . and when all is done, everyone that is alive in the "new world" was saved by the Savior.
The gap is in whether Joseph may be considered the Savior of the World if some starve. According to your definition, not. According to the definition of "Savior of all" that most hold to, emphatically yes.
According to the definition of "Savior of all" that most hold to, emphatically yes.
Please give this definition.
Since most hold to it you should be able to find it in a dictionary, right?
Isn't claiming "most hold to", the same as saying "many people believe"?
I think you should verify statements like this to give them validity.
Most people believe lots of things that aren't true, don't you agree? So why do you keep quoting them and siding with them?
BTW when did you include Jerome in your list of important people? If I had cited him, you would have informed me of all his flaws. Why is this? Do you believe you are unbiased?
ONLY those who came got saved . . . the rest died. Or, to say it in another way:
Does the Bible teach that no one in the world would have survived the famine unless they came to Joseph?
I may be misunderstanding you . . . explain to me how the Scriptures I quoted fit, allowing you to "think on these things".
I see your point. I had missed your connection.
Since all God's judgments are for our benefit, even though they bring pain, suffering, wounds, even death, the end result is always our purification and perfection. That is pure and lovely and has virtue and praise.
The verse you quoted, of course has a mis translated phrase, that makes it appear to be everlasting when it is not, that's what I was focusing on previously.
Death is the ultimate mercy for sinners. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6
Ec 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
According to the definition of "Savior of all" that most hold to, emphatically yes.
Please give this definition.
The definition that most Christians hold to . . . That He can and would save any and all . . . but only those who come will be saved.
Just like Joseph could save all that came to to him.
Or the serpent lifted up could save all who looked.
Or amnesty was extended to all illegal aliens who came in the time frame specified.
Or the judge delivers all those who apply for membership in a class action lawsuit to which they are entitled.
In every case "all" is modified by "who come".
Back to Moses and the serpent . . . under your understanding Moses should have said, "All who look will be quickly saved from death, while everyone else will be saved much more slowly."
People died. Jesus said he was as the serpent lifted up, that "Whosoever Believes" might be saved . . . from death
The analogy clearly supports my understanding, my "definition" of "all" . . . not yours.
Since all God's judgments are for our benefit, even though they bring pain, suffering, wounds, even death, the end result is always our purification and perfection. That is pure and lovely and has virtue and praise.
THEREFORE . . . there is nothing that ISN'T "in" . . . right? It ALL works out for good . . . for everyone, even sin . . . right?! Even deluded people imagining eternal hell works for good for them . . . and the Lord . . . so . . .
T'SALL GOOD!!!!
The definition that most Christians hold to . . . That He can and would save any and all . . . but only those who come will be saved.
Just like Joseph could save all that came to to him.
Or the serpent lifted up could save all who looked.
Or amnesty was extended to all illegal aliens who came in the time frame specified.
Or the judge delivers all those who apply for membership in a class action lawsuit to which they are entitled.
In every case "all" is modified by "who come".
You make an excellent point in favor of the universal reconciliation of all here. I appreciate you pointing out the fact that in your definitions, all is always modified by “who come”.
For your logic to be proved, you need to produce a verse for each usage of “all” that is constructed without modifiers that seems to say “all” but really means “all who come”, such as:
Joseph IS the savior of ALL men, especially those who came to him.
The serpent that Moses held up
saved all Israelites, especially those who looked at it.
Amnesty was granted to ALL illegal Aliens, especially to those who received it.
Back to Moses and the serpent . . . under your understanding Moses should have said, "All who look will be quickly saved from death, while everyone else will be saved much more slowly."
People died. Jesus said he was as the serpent lifted up, that "Whosoever Believes" might be saved . . . from death
Jesus said, Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. The Greek word for “draw” here is “helkuo”. It’s found in seven other verses total in the entire New Testament.
These verses all use the word “draw” to translate “helkuo”, and it is evident that the “draw” here referred to is to exert a force upon an object that causes the object to be moved to a new position. In the verse above, the new position is “unto me”. At the end of this post I will give the verse list, but for now, I will offer one verse in which the object resisted and could not be moved to the desired position.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
Here, the word helkuo must be used with “not able to” because the object was too difficult or too heavy for the the disciples to accomplish the task of drawing it. In every other verse where “helkuo” is used, this is not the case and so it is recorded that the object was “drawn” or would be “drawn”.
When Jesus said, (clearly in reference and in contrast to the serpent in the wilderness testimony), “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will “draw” ALL unto myself.” (The word “men” is not in the original language text. This ALL is not modified with anything.) Moses and the serpent were not able to accomplish what Jesus clearly stated He would accomplish and so there is more to the analogy because everyone who looks to Jesus now, is delivered NOW. This is the reason that 1 Tim 4:10 is modified with the phrase,“Especially those who believe”.
The analogy clearly supports my understanding, my "definition" of "all" . . . not yours.
I am forced to conclude your assessment here to be faulty.
THEREFORE . . . there is nothing that ISN'T "in" . . . right? It ALL works out for good . . . for everyone, even sin . . . right?! Even deluded people imagining eternal hell works for good for them . . . and the Lord . . . so . . .
T'SALL GOOD!!!!
Paul apparently had critics like you.
Ro 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
(Note here that "damnation" means judgment and not "eternal judgment".)
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
So, we teach that it's better not to continue in sin, even though God has set up the universe so that even if we do, it will work out for the good.
Oops! Forgot to post the other verses that use the word "helkuo" or draw.
Here's all eight:
Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
(He drew it. It had no choice in the matter. If he had been unable to draw it, it would say he could not draw it.)
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
(I already commented on this one, two posts above.)
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
(Fish may not have wanted to be drawn, but he drew them anyway.)
Ac 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
(I don't imagine that Paul and Silas "chose" to go into the market place, nor does it indicate that these men "wanted to draw Paul and Silas but were unable cause Paul and Silas didn't want to go.)
Ac 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
(Again, a force greater than Paul or Silas, apart from their will, drew them out of the temple.)
Jas 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
(Do you not get drug against your will into the judgment by powerful rich men?)
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (helkuo) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(In keeping with the meaning of this word, nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.)
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL draw (helkuo)all men unto me.
A simple "if/then" equation.
And I, if I be lifted up...(Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.)
Will, (shall), DRAW, (helkuo),
WILL DRAW ALL UNTO ME!
So Jesus dealt with the weak analogy of the serpent on the staff, and became the Savior on The Cross. A magnificent Savior who claimed He would bring all unto Himself.
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