Tuesday, May 18, 2010

How Did the Jews of Jesus Day Who Wrote in Greek Use Aionios?

Following is an excerpt from the book, Aion and Aionios by John Wesley Hanson:

Those Jews who were contemporary with Christ, but who wrote in Greek, will teach us how they understood the word. Of course when Jesus used it, he employed it as they understood it.
Josephus(50) applies the word to the imprisonment to which John the tyrant was condemned by the Romans; to the reputation of Herod; to the everlasting memorial erected in re-building the temple, already destroyed, when he wrote; to the everlasting worship in the temple which, in the same sentence he says was destroyed; and he styles the time between the promulgation of the law and his writing a long aión. To accuse him of attaching any other meaning than that of indefinite duration to the word, is to accuse him of stultifying himself. But when he writes to describe endless duration he employs other, and less equivocal terms. Alluding to the Pharisees, he says:

"They believe that the wicked are detained in an everlasting prison [eirgmon aidion] subject to eternal punishment" [aidios timoria]; and the Essenes [another Jewish sect] "allotted to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing punishment [timoria adialeipton], where they suffer a deathless punishment, [athanaton timorian]."

It is true he sometimes applies aiónion to punishment, but this is not his usual custom, and he seems to have done this as one might use the word great to denote eternal duration, that is an indefinite term to describe infinity. But aidion and athanaton are his favorite terms. These are unequivocal. Were only aiónion used to define the Jewish idea of the duration of future punishment, we should have no proof that it was supposed to be endless.

Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and always used aiónion to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of Philo, says he never used aiónion to interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv:46, precisely as Christ used it. "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ.
Philo always uses athanaton, ateleuteton or aidion to denote endless, and aiónion for temporary duration.

Stephens, in his Thesaurus, quotes from a Jewish work, [Solom. Parab.] "These they called aiónios, hearing that they had performed the sacred rites for three entire generations." This shows conclusively that the expression "three generations" was then one full equivalent of aiónion. Now these eminent scholars were Jews who wrote in Greek, and who certainly knew the meaning of the words they employed, and they give to the aionian words the meaning that we are contending for, indefinite duration, to be determined by the subject.

Thus the Jews of our Savior's time avoided using the word aiónion to denote endless duration, for applied all through the Bible to temporary affairs, it would not teach it. If Jesus intended to teach the doctrine held by the jews, would he not have used the terms they used? Assuredly; but he did not. He threatened age-lasting, or long-enduring discipline to the believers in endless punishment.Aiónion was his word while theirs was aidion, adialeipton, or athanaton, -- thus rejecting their doctrines by not only not employing their phraseology, but by using always and only those words connected with punishment, that denote limited suffering.
And, still further to show that he had no sympathy with those cruel men who procured his death, Jesus said to his disciples: "Take heed and beware of the leaven [doctrine] of the Pharisees and the Sadducees" [believers in endless misery and believers in destruction].

Had aiónion been the strongest word, especially had it denoted endless duration, who does not see that it would have been in general use as applied to punishment, by the Jewish Greeks of nineteen centuries ago?

22 comments:

Rick Lannoye said...

That's an excellent point to show how Bible translators have skewed the meaning of Jesus' original teachings to make it seem as if he actually thought and taught God intends to torture billions of people for eternity.

Of course, Jesus said just the opposite.

I've actually written an entire book on this topic--Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There's No Such Place As Hell, (for anyone interested, you can get a free ecopy of Did Jesus Believe in Hell?, one of the most compelling chapters in my book at www.thereisnohell.com), but if I may, I'd like to add one more point from it.

If one is willing to look, there's substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: "You don't know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!" Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.

So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!

ACorduan said...

“Josephus(50) applies the word to the imprisonment to which John the tyrant was condemned by the Romans; to the reputation of Herod; to the everlasting memorial erected in re-building the temple, already destroyed, when he wrote; to the everlasting worship in the temple which, in the same sentence he says was destroyed... ”

Completely correct . . . it means “eternal” in all the senses that we use it. What it doesn’t mean is “age bounded” . . . you may consider the fact that certain items are “age bounded”, but that is NOT the meaning of the word. “Forever” does not mean “age bounded” . . . “We are bound forever to a covenant of mutual protection” means . . . forever :-)

===================

“he styles the time between the promulgation of the law and his writing a long aión.”

“Eon” is a different word that can mean “an age” as well as “the eternal age”. “aionios” , on the other hand, does NOT mean “age limited” . . . ever.

===================

“Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and always used aiónion to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of Philo, says he never used aiónion to interminable duration. “

Philo was a heretic at best, if he was a believer at all. The “Word” of John 1 was not divine . . . and miracles and prophesies were to be understood with natural explanations or analogies. Here is a great quote: “So important was Philo to the early church writers that some, such as Eusebius and Jerome even went so far as to claim that he was a Christian.” (http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/philo.php ) That he would have a problem with eternal hell would not be surprising . . . maybe that would influence his perspectives and interpretations a bit. In fact . . . his interpretation of Matthew 25 (quoted) borders on the bizarre . . . and this, from a heretic and all, is a good way to interpret the usage of aionios?

===================

“Now these eminent scholars were Jews who wrote in Greek, and who certainly knew the meaning of the words they employed, and they give to the aionian words the meaning that we are contending for, indefinite duration, to be determined by the subject.”

Boy . . . I like that . . . just like “forever”. “Indefinite” is the key . . . NOT limited. Do you get this, Jack? The fact that some things ARE limited has nothing to do with what aionios means . . . it NEVER means “of limited duration” . . . it means the opposite.

===================

“Jesus said to his disciples: "Take heed and beware of the leaven [doctrine] of the Pharisees and the Sadducees" [believers in endless misery and believers in destruction].

Oops . . . their doctrine was NOT the issue of eternal judgement . . . here is how He defined what He meant: “Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, WHICH IS HYPOCRISY.” Luke 12:1 Phoneys . . . Jesus hates them. (Isaiah 1:14)

I am really surprised at you, Jack . . . you seem ready to grasp at anything . . . and anyone. You have widened your list of important people to include obvious heretics, those that really don’t believe in Jesus . . . but they do believe in Universal salvation. I guess that makes it OK, right? I mean . . . so matter what the level of blasphemy here, they will all be happy in heaven . . .

ACorduan said...

For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: "You don't know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!" Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.

So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!


Not at all. Take these verses, for example:

2 Thess 1:6 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In FLAMING FIRE taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

Jesus . . . in flaming fire . . . coming down in vengeance on those that believe not. Clearly there is a time for no fire, and a time for lots of fire.

Jack said...

Alfred,

All I can do is shake my head in sadness. You misunderstand clear logic, and you rail on me because I use the writing of heretics to illustrate usage contemporary with Jesus and the apostles. Did you notice that the heretics are on your side? They believe in eternal damnation.

God bless you.

ACorduan said...

Stop shaking your head so sadly and answer me, if your logic is so sound! I can't recall you taking up 2 Thess 1, but I would love you to consider it.

Jack said...

Boy . . . I like that . . . just like “forever”. “Indefinite” is the key . . . NOT limited. Do you get this, Jack?

Thank you for clearing that up, now I can help you better. Perhaps you should consider the definition of indefinite. It is not related to "not limited" but "not defined".

Main Entry: in·def·i·nite
Pronunciation: \(ˌ)in-ˈdef-nət, -ˈde-fə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin indefinitus, from in- + definitus definite
Date: 1530
: not definite: as a : typically designating an unidentified, generic, or unfamiliar person or thing b : not precise : vague c : having no exact limits

Hope that helps. Now would you like to reconsider the previous post?

Jack said...

I am really surprised at you, Jack . . . you seem ready to grasp at anything . . . and anyone. You have widened your list of important people to include obvious heretics, those that really don’t believe in Jesus . . .

My list of important people could never be widened. Every human being who ever lived,is living and will live in the future is on it.

If this was not true, I would not have taken so much time trying to help you see the marvelous truth you are denying. You are an important person too.

Who is not important to you?

Jack said...

“Josephus(50) applies the word to the imprisonment to which John the tyrant was condemned by the Romans; to the reputation of Herod; to the everlasting memorial erected in re-building the temple, already destroyed, when he wrote; to the everlasting worship in the temple which, in the same sentence he says was destroyed... ”

Completely correct . . . it means “eternal” in all the senses that we use it. What it doesn’t mean is “age bounded” . . . you may consider the fact that certain items are “age bounded”, but that is NOT the meaning of the word. “Forever” does not mean “age bounded” . . . “We are bound forever to a covenant of mutual protection” means . . . forever :-)


I demonstrate clear usage of aionios that cannot mean eternal and you say "correct" and proceed to rant in denial? Josephus, a most prominent Jewish historian, uses aionios to describe a prison sentence, the equivalent of a "life sentence" and you say it means eternal? Josephus thought the Romans could incarcerate John the tyrant for eternity? When used as a description of the rebuilding of the temple which was already destroyed when he wrote, and you think he meant aionios memorial to be Eternal and when he referred to the worship that took place in that same temple as taking place during the age, you say he meant that the worship is taking place in that temple eternally? The temple that is destroyed at the time of the writing?

Strange!

Jack said...

“Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used aidion to denote endless, and always used aiónion to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of Philo, says he never used aiónion to interminable duration. “

Philo was a heretic at best, if he was a believer at all.


So! He was fluent in Greek. The Greek of Jesus day. He used aionios to express temporary duration.

That he would have a problem with eternal hell would not be surprising . . . maybe that would influence his perspectives and interpretations a bit.

Philo believed in Eternal Hell, like you. I guess you didn't read that part. So tell me again why he never used aionios to describe it, but always used the other words.

You sir, are not reading what you are responding to.

Jack said...

Stop shaking your head so sadly and answer me, if your logic is so sound! I can't recall you taking up 2 Thess 1, but I would love you to consider it.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting [aionios] destruction[olethros] from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[These are probably the verses you were desiring comment on.]

The Jews who were persecuting the Thessalonians seem to be the objects of the fiery judgment, the promise is that those who know not God are cursed with separation from the presence of God during this life. [aionios]

Therefore I prefer to focus on the word olethros for the moment.

Briefly, the four verses it is found in are 1Cor 5:5; 1Thess 5:3; the verse above and 1Tim 6:9. It never carries the idea of anything more than physical loss up to the point of death. In the verse above it is qualified with aionios, which you will say means eternal but I say means having to do with time. Let’s look at the different uses:
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Obviously in this verse the destruction spoken of leads to salvation. HMMM.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Here the destruction, from which they shall not escape is likened unto a woman’s travail, a woman who is about to give birth. Again a precursor to something good. Interesting analogy. It is a destruction of the evil in them at death. The end of their lives. Remember, Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. Ec 7:1 A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth.
And the last use of olethros [destruction]:
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
A warning against the love of money. Notice the construction…they that will be rich fall into temptations and snares and lusts that drown men in olethros … and pierce themselves through with …sorrows. An affirmation of the consequences in this life that those who love money will suffer.
It continues:
1Tim 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal [aionios] life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. [What? Lay hold on eternal life??? Where you have professed a good profession??? Of course not. It is aionios life, “life in Christ”, the life of faith that the Thessalonians are being exhorted to lay hold on, and where they HAVE professed a good profession. Past tense.]
That’s how I see it, and I sincerely believe that to see aionios as eternal continually puts stress and strain on the text because it simply doesn’t fit.

ACorduan said...

Main Entry: in·def·i·nite having no exact limits

It NEVER means "bounded", in any case. THAT is the point you must surrender. Not that the item itself may be bounded . . . but the intent behind the word is to convey "no bound".

if I say, "we are friends for ever", you would never get the idea I am trying to convey ANY limit, regardless of what our mortality says about "for ever".

Same with "eternal" love . . . "everlasting" meetings. Regardless of the fact that the meeting WILL end, the WORD that modifies meeting deliberately means the opposite of "having a bound".

So, again, the idea of "age bounded" or - have to love Young - "age-during" is completely false . . . completely outside the meaning of this incredible word . . .

ACorduan said...

My list of important people could never be widened. Every human being who ever lived,is living and will live in the future is on it.

Who is not important to you?


If God Himself told you some people are more important than others, and that some people are completely unimportant, would you believe Him? NO . . . because your perceptions are equivalent to the Lord's . . . you are like Him.

Psalm 15:4 "In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD."

Psalm 139:21-22 "Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject"

Proverbs 13:20 "He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed."

1 Cor 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

YOU know what the Scripture says . . . spend your time with the wrong people, and the Lord will personally destroy you.

Leviticus 20:6 " And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people."

Psalms 1:1 "Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."

Rev. 2:20 "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel . . . Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death"

I will stop my own fire hose . . . some people are not worth your time or focus . . . and if you do give them time, focus, friendship, the Lord will personally judge you . . .

ACorduan said...

I demonstrate clear usage of aionios that cannot mean eternal and you say "correct" and proceed to rant in denial? Josephus, a most prominent Jewish historian, uses aionios to describe a prison sentence, the equivalent of a "life sentence" and you say it means eternal?

OK . . . based on your logic, explain to me the meaning of "unlimited" as defined by the usage below:

"Ben Bova: Nuclear fusion promises unlimited power for the future" (http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/apr/10/ben-bova-nuclear-fusion-promises-unlimited-power-f/)

"FSA's Lord Turner warns against unlimited expansion of global financial sector" (http://topnews.co.uk/22533-fsas-lord-turner-warns-against-unlimited-expansion-global-financial-sector)

"McAfee Launches New, Unlimited Capacity Online Backup Service " (http://hothardware.com/News/McAfee-Launches-New-Unlimited-Capacity-Online-Backup-Service/)

Based on your "logic", if these headlines fell into the hands of someone 1000 years from tonight - one of your decendents named "Jaque", speaking to one of my decendents named "Elphred" - who both speak Compolian, and are trying to understand the word "unlimited" in the dead language called English . . . .


Jague would say, "SEE - the word clearly can mean, "Bounded"!!!" . . .

Elphred would say, "NO! The authors use the word to mean the OPPOSITE of bounded . . . the fact that each of the items mentioned has a bound does NOT change the meaning of the word "unlimited", which means - and ALWAYS MEANS - "Without a limit"

EXACTLY the same with Josephus, Jack . . . exactly the same.

ACorduan said...

"Philo believed in Eternal Hell, like you."

Since you likely have that at your fingertips, could you save me the trouble and point that out? The general information I read indicated that he did NOT believe in literal spiritual, miraculous things . . .

ACorduan said...

The Jews who were persecuting the Thessalonians seem to be the objects of the fiery judgment, the promise is that those who know not God are cursed with separation from the presence of God during this life. [aionios]

THAT was a major dodge, Jack. Even a baby would have to point out the verse just before the ones you quoted . . . with tell us WHEN God will judge the unbelievers with fire:

7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS"

So . . . you don't get to spiritualize this . . . although I am amazed at your increasing willingness to try.

The judgment happens with He is revealed from heaven . . . with the mighty angels. Since that was in a future tense to Paul, when do you propose this was to happen . . . . revelation from heaven, angels and all?

2Th 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

Jack said...

THAT was a major dodge, Jack. Even a baby would have to point out the verse just before the ones you quoted . . . with tell us WHEN God will judge the unbelievers with fire:

7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS"

So . . . you don't get to spiritualize this . . . although I am amazed at your increasing willingness to try.

The judgment happens with He is revealed from heaven . . . with the mighty angels. Since that was in a future tense to Paul, when do you propose this was to happen . . . . revelation from heaven, angels and all?


No dodge at all Alfred, and I am not spiritualizing either. 70 A.D. fiery judgment came ending the age of the Abrahamic covenant. Jesus spoke much about it, as did John the Baptist and Paul and Peter and John. During the interim, the Godless Jews who persecuted the believers suffered separation from God just exactly like the verse speaks about. Take some time off and read Josephus' account of those days. I believe Matthew 24 means exactly what it says..." Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. You can read the whole chapter to see what the things are.

Although I deeply desire to help you to see, I believe that my continuing this discussion with you is no longer profitable. I don't believe I can paint a clearer picture of my understanding and unless you are lying, which I don't think you are, you simply cannot see what I've tried so hard to show you.

ACorduan said...

No dodge at all Alfred, and I am not spiritualizing either. 70 A.D. fiery judgment came ending the age of the Abrahamic covenant.

OK . . . you get Jesus revealed from heaven in there . . . and angels?


Mt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Curious where you would place the following, then:

29 "IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

See . . . I, and a few others, would have an awful hard time making that fit the destruction of Jerusalem.

THAT is why Jesus said, when speaking of the "Abomination of Desolation", "Let him that readeth consider" . . . consider that, although Antiochus Ephiphanes sort of did that in 167BC, Jesus said it was still coming . . . That this prophecy had several layers of fulfillment, each a clearer shadow of the actual, but that the actual was not going to happen until the "very end". Hasn't happened yet . . .

you simply cannot see what I've tried so hard to show you.

I appreciate the time you have invested. "Despise not prophesyings" . . . when others that love you get all excited in Jesus name, pay attention. Sometimes it is down to a solitary voice. In other contexts such things constituted a solemn warning from the Lord. I have never been hard to get rid of . . .

Jack said...

If God Himself told you some people are more important than others, and that some people are completely unimportant, would you believe Him? NO . . . because your perceptions are equivalent to the Lord's . . . you are like Him.

My Lord Jesus taught this:

Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Who am I to judge another man's servant?

Ro 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

God created everyone, and loves everyone. I am totally undeserving of His love, and yet while I was yet a sinner, Jesus died for me. He has opened my eyes to His salvation, He has raised me from the dead, He has forgiven me. I am no better than the worst sinner, for I am as bad as it gets. Change my circumstances enough and I would commit any sin that has been committed. His mercy to me is unmeasurable. I have cursed God many times, yet He holds me, forgives me, rescues me, loves me. There is no one I can look down on. Yet at times, in my pride, I forget this too!

So you can go ahead and look down on some, but whatsoever you do to them, you do to Him. And you can accuse me of thinking I am like Him, but I make my decisions based on what I understand Him to teach.

Jack said...

OK . . . you get Jesus revealed from heaven in there . . . and angels?
...

Curious where you would place the following, then:


May I point out to you that Jesus is the one who made the claim that all these things would be fulfilled before the generation passed. Here is what I've found.

29 "IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Ge 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Notice how Jacob didn't need the dream to be explained. Sun and Moon and stars were the authority structure of the house of Jacob. This fell around 70 A.D.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Josephus was not a Christian, nor was Tacitus, but they both recorded strange things happening in the sky.


5. “Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem.” Neither could this portentous spectacle be occasioned by the aurora borealis, for it occurred before the setting of the sun; or merely the fancy of a few villagers, gazing at the heavens, for it was seen in various parts of the country.

See . . . I, and a few others, would have an awful hard time making that fit the destruction of Jerusalem.

I would have a hard time too, if Jesus hadn't said it. Since He did, and since Josephus and Tacitus both record it through the eyes of unbelievers as they were. I believe it.

I have searched every instance in Scripture of "this generation" and it always seems to be in reference to the generation present when the words were spoken.

Jack said...

Quote above. 5.Soon after the feast...

Is from:

DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM – Holford, 1812

ACorduan said...

My Lord Jesus taught this:

Mt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mt 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Who am I to judge another man's servant?


Well, now, you need balance . . .

1 Cor 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? DO NOT YE JUDGE THEM THAT ARE WITHIN? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Judging . . . in the church. But wait, there is more:

Next Chapter: "2 Do ye not know that THE SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGLES? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

What is the answer, Jack?

You grab your favorite verses, and ignore the rest. You do greatly err.

ACorduan said...

May I point out to you that Jesus is the one who made the claim that all these things would be fulfilled before the generation passed.

1) You assume "This" is the generation before Him . . . many believe it to be the generation that begins to see the final tribulation will see it all. That's it.

2) But I think this is a better explanation. Back to the "Abomination of Desolation" . . . interesting that Jesus looks up and actually talks directly to you and me:

Matt 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (WHOSO READETH, LET HIM UNDERSTAND:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: . . . "

Why did He say that? Those reading would be looking BACK at the fall of Jerusalem . . . AND He is telling THEM - US - to get ready to flee. This is clear, because the Jews of that day looked back to Antiochus Epiphanes in 167BC who butchered a pig on the altar in Jerusalem and stood in the holy of holies as the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. Those into prophecy match the dates.

But . . . according to Jesus . . . not! Jesus said it was still coming . . . and, as the READER looks back, he is to realize that it is STILL FUTURE. Didn't happen in 167BC, Didn't get fulfilled in AD 70 . . . still pending.

THEREFORE . . . in this case "This generation" saw the partial shadow fulfilled . . . but, again, the full fulfillment is still pending.