What shall I liken you to? You are like the brother of the prodigal son! You would deny the Father’s forgiveness to your brother. You consider yourself worthy of his forgiveness, but your brother who spent his life and the fathers inheritance in wantoness and foolish living you begrudge him the abundant forgiveness that the Father desires to bestow upon him even after he was dead. Regardless of your sour attitude toward your brother who died in his sin, the Father will still kill the fatted calf and put His ring upon his finger.
Lu 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Allow me a moment to expound on the fact that you too, were an enemy of God.
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Perhaps you still are an enemy? No offense, I offer an honest observation. There is evidence that you don’t love those who have died without Christ, or those who shall die apart from Christ. Perhaps you love them a little, but not as yourself. Here is why I say this: If you loved them as much as you love yourself, there is nothing you would not do to save them from the horrible fate you claim to believe they are headed for. Furthermore, you could never be content to receive the precious gift of mercy and deliverance, while knowing that these others are heading to or are already bound in eternal flame. True love could never accept this! This requires true hate, which you advocate. Scripture affirms that those who say they love God, as you claim you do, but hate people are liars. It also affirms that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. We aren’t even allowed to hate our enemies. I’m sorry that you so firmly reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. In so doing you deny Jesus himself. Not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of God. Your self righteousness is like filthy rags. What makes you worthy of deliverance? You too will be judged by God and you too will pass through the fire. Mr 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire…
You should not think more highly of yourself than you ought. With man it is impossible to be saved, but not with God. With God all things are possible. His will is clear and he accomplishes everything according to the counsel of His OWN Will.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should come to repentance.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Yes, it is true that God disciplines those whom He loves, and that He pours out His wrath on the children of disobedience, I will never deny that. He even mercifully ends the life of those who are reprobate. Those who He knows will not benefit from another day in this life. Here you must remember,
Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Why do you suppose he holds the keys to hell and death? Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Keys are for unlocking locked doors.
I counsel you to learn what this means:
Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Here you use the word repent:
“Here is an interesting thought: Mark 1:15 “Repent and believe the Gospel” Repent and believe the endless unmitigated joy? No reason to repent . . . that is what everyone wants.”
Perhaps this verse is written for you. Have you ever looked up the Greek word here translated repent? We all know what the English word means, but I find it interesting that the Greek word merely means to think differently.
3340. metanoew metanoeo, met-an-o-eh'-o
from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction).
Jesus came to help us to "think differently". There is no room in our thinking for self righteousness, but we are to think of others as better than ourselves. This message did resonate with the sinners of Jesus day much more than it did with the “kosmos” or religious and political establishment. Jesus brought good news for sinners, but you place burdens on them that they cannot lift, while you excuse all your own sin as forgiven because you are wise enough to believe in Jesus. The shame here, is that you don’t even know Him well enough to recognize His unfailing love for all, or the power of His resurrection. If you knew Him you would never question His unending, unfailing love for all of His created ones.
You believe that He is unable or unwilling to raise sinners from the dead to righteousness and you like it that way.
Is it because you would feel cheated if God saved your enemies? Do you feel you should be paid more than them because you worked all day in the heat, while they came along at the end of the day? THINK DIFFERENTLY! The gift is free and it’s for all and it will eventually be good news of great joy to ALL people. Those who believe enter into the joy of their Lord now, those who don’t believe, will have to wait until the next age to enter into the joy of their Lord.
Pointing out verses referring to Gods wrath and discipline upon sinners to say the news isn’t good, is like pointing to labor pains to prove there is no joy in the birth of a child.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
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To what shall I liken you? To those that sing a sweet song to those who are dying, enticing them to neglect the only remedy for an incurable disease, available for a limited time only. Jeremiah 6:14 “They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.”
Ezekiel 3:18 “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require AT THINE HAND.”
This is the telling statement: “TRUE LOVE COULD NEVER ACCEPT THIS!” Whatever you call “true love” is opposed to the ways of God. Several times I have caught you (assuming you are, as usual, really Jack) by proposing the very judgments that God demanded in His Scriptures and you rejected them as “not loving” . . . until I pointed out the source. Even then you would hardly accept them. You are not judged by God – You are His judge, deciding what He may do, what you will accept Him to do. Genuine repentance – as you point out – is changing my mind to agree with God, without qualification. Iniquity – we are studying in our “Wisdom Book”, is “a-nomia” . . . Not under God’s law. Iniquity is doing what is right in my own eyes, even if it happens to agree with God. So that lots of “do-gooders” in Matthew 7 will end up in hell. ... See More
As to accomplishing everything according to the counsel of His will . . . as I have often pointed out:
In Mathew 23 – again -
His sovereign love is like a hen;
Yet what He wants He never got,
He said, “I WOULD . . . but ye WOULD NOT”
The same word – “Thelo” – found in Greek,
Is “will” or “would”, the things He seeks;
He “would” save all if He had His way,
He’ll never force – we must obey.
He wanted something but was unable to obtain it because they would not. It completely contradicts your primary point, that God always gets what He wants.
You chide me for not having mercy. This is not my business, but the Lord’s. Doesn’t matter what I believe, does it? It only matters if what I believe and teach reflects what God has stated. As to liking it . . . I like whatever the Lord does and says. Instead of attacking my character, by honorable and take me back to the Scriptures and prove me wrong. The “devil is in the details”, the details you seem to constantly be avoiding . . . your answer to a boatload of Scripture is to chide me for being unloving and to state your points again.
Labor pains are – and have always been – pain with a purpose. Kidney stone pain is, well, pain . . . no purpose. Same for pain from a bullet hole. Discipline and Vengeance have completely different purposes – God does both. You greatly err by confusing the two.
"enticing them to neglect the only remedy..."
Your remedy is eternal torment? No one can come to Jesus unless the veil is removed. Those with hard hearts cannot grasp the "gospel" of sweet Jesus/eternal Torment. No more can they embrace the (what I believe to be the true gospel) sweet Jesus/age of Torment. The remedy is Jesus. Now or later--for everyone. There is no peace, nor have we ever advocated peace for those with darkened hearts. Judgment is there course. Final Redemption their end. We do not offer peace to those who need the Lord's hand of discipline.
The only remedy is repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus. To turn from idols and iniquity to bow the knee to Him IN TIME.
"By the fear of the LORD men depart from evil" Proverbs 16:6 You take the fear out, even as y'all have affirmed for, you say, "Perfect Love casts out fear". Either Scripture is in a collision, or you have misinterpreted that verse in 1 John.
And you have . . . that speaks to those who would pursue others to see them saved . . . perfect love gives them the courage to go after them. It does NOT mean that God's love for me drives all fear out of me.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." Psalms 111:10 Couple that with this: "Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom" 1 Cor 1:30 Do you not see? Without fear - the beginning of wisdom - you cannot even begin to know sweet Jesus. And to know Him is eternal life . . .
"Happy is the man that feareth alway" Proverbs 28:14 If what I have said is right, may the Lord speak to you and convict you of your grave error.
Another perfect example of your unfounded claims. You add the words IN TIME, and offer no Scriptural support at all.
?????
Where does it say that?
As for your ideas on fear, you are in the collision course.
Again this is a reiterration of what we've already been over.
Fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of Wisdom.
Perfect Love casts out fear. B.G. has written a whole booklet on "The Fear of the Lord" and he concludes it is being aware of His presence always.
He recommends memorizing verses such as, Ge 16:13 ... Thou God seest me: and Ps 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
If you are walking in love, their is no reason to be "scared". Rather you can look with joy for His blessing.
Do you disagree with Mr. B.G. on this?
Ezekiel 3:18 “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require AT THINE HAND.”
Is this in reference to eternal death or just regular death?
If you want my working definition of true love, start at 1Cor 13, and note the word charity. It is actually "agape" which is what I mean when I say true love. Then check out Lu 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
This is a small sampling of the love I am referring to. I can provide you with a complete list if you like.
...we are studying in our “Wisdom Book”, is “a-nomia” . . . Not under God’s law. Iniquity is doing what is right in my own eyes, even if it happens to agree with God. So that lots of “do-gooders” in Matthew 7 will end up in hell.
Not under God's law? Who does that describe? Let's look at Gods law.
Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Lu 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Obviously I could go on and on, example after example quote after quote. The Law is about love, love is the fulfilling of the law Jesus loves His enemies, sinners, the world, and He never changes. He disciplines!!! those whom He loves. That is a very important ingredient to love. I love my children and I discipline them and as they grow older, they are glad I have spanked them, though they did not like it at the moment, it yielded good fruit and they see it. Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness.
Back to your point, Iniquity is not under God's law. So how is it you would stop me from teaching that Jesus is the Saviour of ALL, and that He has a special salvation for those who believe?
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
Why do you imply that I'm iniquitous for obeying this command? And for proclaiming the unconditional Love of God?
"Another perfect example of your unfounded claims. You add the words IN TIME, and offer no Scriptural support at all.
?????"
I have proven that and you have never refuted it. So now is the perfect time to do so. Matt. 7: He says "I NEVER knew you" to those that bow the knee and say "Lord, Lord" in that day. Too late . . . if what you believe is true, that confession would keep them out of hell . . . but, sadly, they are instead kept out of heaven.
"B.G. has written a whole booklet on "The Fear of the Lord" and he concludes it is being aware of His presence always."
Exactly correct. He is recording and judging every event, all of which He sees. "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matthew 12:36
BTW, B.G. is the one who explains in the Basic Seminar that "Perfect love casts out fear" is as a man fearing to interrupt a neighbor's party uninvited . . . until he sees that the house is on fire. THAT is the correct understanding of that verse . . . The fear is the fear of man, NOT the fear of the Lord.
And now I demand - with all my 5' 3" frame - that you deal with this verse that you have ignored several times:
Luke 12:4-5 "And I say unto you MY FRIENDS, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom YE SHALL FEAR: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, FEAR HIM."
This is spoken to his friends - us - and He commands us to fear God. Either ignore Jesus or accept a far better understanding of one of your favorite verses . . . which is it?
"his blood will I require AT THINE HAND.”
Is this in reference to eternal death or just regular death?"
Take your pick . . . the principle holds either way. But godly believers over the milenia have taken this as a very serious warning to us all who would preach to others ("Watchman" song by the Marshall Family)
God holds us accountable for not giving out the warnings that He insists we give out. Would you preach Luke 16(rich man vs. Lazarus) as Jesus did, with nothing past him weeping and wailing and gnashing his teeth and the final period? Jesus didn't offer any hope in that story - would you? Your "love" would not permit you, I would think . . . by condemning Him, you condemn yourself.
These enless dumps of Scripture are wearying, Jack . . . at least explain what you think they mean to you, for they obviously don't mean to you what they mean to me.
I know and love 1 Cor. 13 . . . We love, we are to be like Jesus. We do NOT wish ill on others . . . we bear their sin, we struggle to see them saved, and then going on for the Lord, delivered from the practical power of sin.
We love sinners with all our heart and wish them to be saved - but not all will be saved for they choose the darkness over the light, and are lost.
God too "would (thelo) have all men to be saved" . . . but, as pointed out repeatedly, He elsewhere says He "would" (thelo) have gathered them and protected them . . . but "ye would (thelo) not". Therefore they are destroyed. Matt. 23 - their will trumps His wishes . . . I demand you deal with this :-)
Love simply does not violate God's principle of free will. Love and obedience must be chosen, freely, or they do not exist.
He wanted something but was unable to obtain it because they would not. It completely contradicts your primary point, that God always gets what He wants.
My dear Alfred, this is not MY point, this is God's Word.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
...according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Da 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Your doctrine contradicts these verses. Yes, during the aions many do reject Him, but NOBODY comes to Him by their will, not even you.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It is not a matter of our will, but of God's choosing.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus...
Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
The words you spoke are shameful. God the Almighty who proclaims Nothing is too hard for me. With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
Yes, God expresses disappointment in our rejection of Him, just as a loving parent shows sadness when their child is rejecting them. It is a tool used to train children, operated in love.
God's weeping over Jerusalem is not the end of the matter for His word proclaims that ALL Israel SHALL be Saved. Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
"Why do you imply that I'm iniquitous for obeying this command? And for proclaiming the unconditional Love of God?"
You deal in iniquity because your sensibilities trump the Lord's commands. You cannot allow Him to be anything He wishes to be, even if you cannot understand it. Several times you have made this point, that you simply cannot accept a God who would judge a soul with unending hell. That is, by definition, iniquity - I am the judge, I am not judged by God's law (whether I understand it or not).
How many times have I heard various unsaved self-righteous people (of which you are not one) say exactly the same thing. I shake my head - "Honey, you will give account to Him - He will NOT be giving account to you. And . . . He holds the keys of death and hell . . . and can destroy BOTH body and soul in hell . . . I would change my position real fast, if I were you"
[And, BTW, keys are NOT just for unlocking doors . . . they also lock them . . . in some cases permanently.
Luke 13:24-25 " . . . many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE. When once the master of the house is risen up, and HATH SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are" There it is again: "Lord, Lord", but NO salvation]
Luke 12:4-5 "And I say unto you MY FRIENDS, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom YE SHALL FEAR: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, FEAR HIM."
I offer a parallel passage to shed light on the topic.
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Addressing the fear portion: be aware of His presence. As you should know the word translated Hell is a physical location that Jesus listeners would have recognized and probably had all visited. Gehenna, a dump, a place of dishonourable buriel, something the Jews, who never had any warnings of eternal damnation in the entire old testament, feared for it would bring dishonor to them and all their families to meet with such a fate. The destruction of the soul occurs in this life, I have witnessed it when God has judged some people I've known. This is a fate worse than death, when your mind ceases to function, your emotions are destroyed and your will is inoperable leaving you exposed to more destructive devices that you cannot resist, causing you to die a dishonorable death and be buried in a dishonorable place. Gehenna isn't Hell. It is Gehenna. A valley outside Jerusalem. But if Jesus meant Hell, you surely can find a parallel verse that would affirm that.
And, BTW, keys are NOT just for unlocking doors . . . they also lock them . . . in some cases permanently.
Then they would be thrown away, but He holds them.
I have proven that and you have never refuted it. So now is the perfect time to do so. Matt. 7: He says "I NEVER knew you" to those that bow the knee and say "Lord, Lord" in that day. Too late . . . if what you believe is true, that confession would keep them out of hell . . . but, sadly, they are instead kept out of heaven.
In your dreams maybe. You've never proven anything. The words "I never knew you" are past tense, they do not say I never shall know you and you cannot prove that takes place in the end of time, because it doesn't. Look more closly at the text. Don't assume it it the end of time if it doesn't say so. That is what is taking place every day as Jesus rules from the right hand of God. For He must rule until He has brought everyone under His rule. 1Cor 15.
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
What are they being refused? Entry into the Kingdom?
Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Curious that it doesn't say "eternal life" but just "life".
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
And the Kingdom of Heaven is the same as the Kingdom of God.
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
This Kingdom is not being witheld until we die, it is here now! It is within us. We are His dwelling places, He resides in us, if we abide in Him. If we don't really know Him, we are acting in iniquity, performing our own idea of service to Him which He resists. So we wander in spiritual darkness, and weep, and grind our teeth in frustration because we don't know Him. Our prayers go unanswered because we think we are better than those who don't believe in Him according to our description of Him. Even though we preach a Jesus of Hate and darkness and the aetheists call us on it, we blindly ignore their honest objections and leave them to their Christless fate, while we go on as blind guides, ourselves headed for the ditch. Pray that God opens your eyes, admit that you don't know Him. He is Love. He will receive you unconditionally.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
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