God knows me, and He still wants to pursue a personal relationship with me. That is truly amazing. He knows everything about me, and still wants to enjoy my fellowship with Him.
What does it mean to know God? How do you come to an intimate personal knowledge of Him?
I am not thinking of intellectual knowledge or facts about Him, but the importance of knowing a close friend.
The apostle Paul prayed that believers would know God the Father who chose us, God the Son who redeemed us, and God the Holy Spirit who applied salvation to us personally through the new birth. Now that He has saved me do I have a growing knowledge of Him? Perhaps in our busy schedule and pressures of modern life we should ask do I even want it? How do I fit a hunger for God into a complex worldview?
In Ephesians 1:17-19 the apostle Paul prayed that God would give believers “the Spirit of wisdom and revelation . . . to know Him better.” Paul wanted them to have a “true knowledge of Him.” But you say, they already knew Him as their Savior, and had obtained eternal life. But what I am asking is has God placed within your heart a hunger to know Him better?
With every relationship in life we make deliberate choices as to whether we want to pursue the relationship. God has invited us to get to know Him better. Have we responded to that invitation to belongingness? Do we have that “we” feeling with Him? Have we taken the first few faltering steps and halted? Have we reached a plateau, and is it now time to respond to further instruction in His Word?
Has the Holy Spirit opened the “enlightened eyes of our hearts” in order that we may know “the hope to which He has called us, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the saints, and His incomparably great power for us who believe”?
Paul’s prayer for knowledge of God is based on a plea to have a greater knowledge of God’s saving grace. God takes the initiative and invites us to a personal involvement of our whole person. It is a permanent relationship based on the awesome knowledge that He knows me and desires a personal, abiding relationship with me.
Perhaps Paul had in mind the great prayer of Jesus, “This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3).
Do you know Him? Do you want to know Him better? It is true that we have a great deal more to learn about Him in His Word. Knowing about Him is important, but knowing Him personally is more important. We must act on what we have learned in His Word.
How do I get to know God better in His personal dealings with me? It begins with a hunger or thirsting for the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to our soul and to open the living Word of God to our inner person. Such a knowledge is not found apart from a study of the Scriptures. It is to the person who sits at Jesus’ feet that God opens His heart to reveal Himself. It is time spent with God on our knees with the open Word that issues in an intimate knowledge of Him. You cannot get to know a real person without spending time with him or her. We cannot know God without time in His presence. We know truth about His attributes from His revealed Word as the Spirit applies them to our lives, and as we act upon that knowledge we experience Him personally.
God chose us, and called us “to be holy and blameless in His sight” as His full grown adopted children. We grow in our knowledge of God as we become more like the Lord Jesus Christ in every way, every day. As we grow in the knowledge of His grace we grow in His likeness. One day we will know Him in perfect character. My prayer is that He will hasten that day. Today, we live in the tension of the here and now and that which is yet to be.
Because we are His unique possession, purchased by His blood, “we share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light” (Col. 1:12). God has rich blessings in store for those who get to know Him better. Are we claiming our inheritance now? We can only as we get to know Him intimately. The apostle Paul said, “We know little; and we know imperfectly.” One wonderful day when He comes we will know fully and perfectly.
Do I know Him in the power of His resurrection? This is to know God’s power by personal experience. Do I know the power that God exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead? The knowledge of God is experienced in the power of Christ’s resurrection in our lives today. Oh, God that I may know you today!
Selah!
Message by Wil Pounds (c) 2006
152 comments:
Hi all, this is Tim Lynch. I will be transferring a valuable discussion here from Alfred and Jack for the purpose of leaving a more lasting record of this scriptural debate.
Alfred: If "eternal life" means to know Him . . . and "eternal", y'all have emphatically insisted, means "age bounded", apparently you only get to know Him for a specific period of time, right? You have told me that "Aionois" never means "forever and ever" . . . am I correct?
Jack: Alfred. Eternal life does not mean "to know Him". It IS knowing Him. In other words, the only way to be alive is to know Him. That would apply to this age, the next age and also after the ages are over.(Those who don't truly know Him are dead, even while they live.) We were created to know Him and to be known by Him. One day, that knowledge ... See Morewill be complete and then it will be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet: Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. This is the fulfillment of the law: Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Until all have learned to love, the law is unfulfilled. Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. And we know that we only love Him because He first loved us.1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. This is the conclusion of the matter: God must be everybodies all (Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, and strength...) And He must dwell in EVERYBODY. ALL IN ALL! There is only one way that can happen, and God will do it in His perfect time. The popular doctrine only allows God to be all in some in the end. Therefore I believe it is not true.
Alfred: "Alfred. Eternal life does not mean "to know Him". It IS knowing Him. In other words, the only way to be alive is to know Him."
Do you mean physically alive in the sense that everyone is? Do you become “eternal life” when you come to know Him, or is everyone alive and just needs to get to know Him better?
And . . . explain to me the purpose for "eternal" in front of "life". It it is as you say, then He would have said, "And this is LIFE, that they might know Thee . . . " He almost always modifies "life" with "eternal" when He is speaking of the reward of faith in Christ . . . why?... See More
Jack: Hi Alfred,
Almost always???
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.... See More
Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Would you like to rephrase your question? The above list is by no means exhaustive. This is not to say that aionios life isn't mentioned often, but it never contradicts the concept of being during time while it does come in distinct contradiction to being endless or eternal in many cases.
Question for you: Would it be ill towards a neighbor to put them into a condition of eternal torment, when it is in your power to not do so?
Alfred:
"Eternal Life" is used often . . . When you eliminate all the "life" that are Psueche - "Soul" (such as "save his life (psueche)" . . . and those that don't refer to the reward of those that are saved . . . you see that "eternal" and "life" go together. [for the record, "everlasting" - in your examples - is on my side :-)]
When you say, "it never contradicts the concept of being during time" you are begging the question. The real question is why it is there, not what it doesn't contradict. If it means what you believe, it is senseless to include.
Specifically, tell me why He is including it in John 17:3 . . . why say "Eternal Life" and not just "Life"... See More
As to doing "ill to our neighbor", that has nothing to do with a legal system of rewards and consequences. God gives the government a sword to kill and maime with (Romans 13), clearly to do ill with. God Himself does ill to people, when it is in His power to do otherwise.
The government executes the "ultimate punishment", death . . . so does God, that being eternal death, the 2nd death. His ultimate justice is "without mercy" (Hebrews 10:28). God's love is expressed in His justice - as we have often discussed before, He loves some more than others, starting with His own Son. His love for others turns to hatred when they reject His Son, just like our love for our parents, spouses, children turns to hatred when they force us to choose between them and Him (Luke 14:26)
God is love, He loves all the time - but He does NOT love all all the time. He also hates, something you refuse to acknowledge. That is the falacy undergirding your position.
Sat at 10:17pm ·
Jack: Alfred,
Begging the question is assuming the initial point. The fallacy of petitio principii, or "begging the question", is committed "when a proposition which requires proof is assumed without proof."[ Discovering the meaning of a word through usage is not begging the question. It is easy to establish that aion and aionios as well as the Hebrew awlam, which are usually mistranslated as forever or eternal etc are found in the plural, and/ or used in contexts which absolutely preclude the meaning of eternal, or for ever etc. This has nothing to do with assuming an initial point. It has to do with providing evidence against the probability of aion meaning what it cannot mean… which is eternal. You say that it is meaningless to add aion to Joh 17:3 if it has the meaning of “pertaining to time” or “age during”.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Why would it be meaningless to affirm that those who know God and Jesus will be blessed with life during the existence of time? Since all will be blessed with life after time, when God is all in all, it is totally appropriate to make the distinction for those who know him. When this is understood, then 1Ti 4:9 and 10 actually make sense…... See More
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Notice it doesn’t say “exclusively of those who believe”. Those who know the Lord, enter into “aionios life” as soon as they come to know Him. Those who don’t know Him live outside the Kingdom and are dead even while they live.
Notice also it clearly says He is the Saviour of ALL … Not some… but SPECIALLY of those who believe! What makes believers salvation special? It begins when they believe!
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting (aionios) life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (If your definition were correct, all who hear and believe on Jesus would be instantly raptured.)
John 5:24 speaks of those who believe while still alive… followed by …
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The dead shall hear… they that hear shall live…. SHALL does not mean maybe. The dead SHALL hear therefore the dead shall live.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
(continued next comment)
Alfred's comment continued: You maintain that Jesus will not accomplish that which He was sent to do! This is a serious accusation against the Almighty and against His Son. Specially when you consider that the Word of God makes boasts of complete victory over sin and death and Satan. In the popular scenario you are defending, Satan walks away with the greatest plunder, leaving Jesus with a handful. In your scenario, millions of those Jesus died for continue sinning for endless eternity, while they live in darkness and a state of death, while Scripture boasts, 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
??? Duh, answers the grave in your scenario… I hold most of the souls you have created, where is YOUR victory?
Your response to my question, re: working ill towards ones neighbor… Of course I was referring to Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
You say it is not relevant. You accuse God of working ill toward his neighbor and say it is love. Do you not see the contradiction? Jesus cannot work ill towards his neighbor and fulfill the law, Romans 13:10 doesn’t allow that option. That is precisely why all His discipline must be for our benefit. Does a loving parent work ill towards their children when they discipline them? Does a surgeon work ill toward His patient when he cuts them open to perform life saving surgery? Causing pain, grief, suffering or even physical death to accomplish an improved condition is not working ill, but to inflict punishment with no design for improvement is working ill and is inconsistent with the Bible’s definition of love which is the fulfilling of the law which Jesus said shall not pass till all be fulfilled.
You cite Lu 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
I’m not sure why you chose this verse? It illustrates the point that hate as used in the old English does not carry the meaning you need to prove your point. We are commanded to love our parents as they are probably our closest neighbors. We are commanded to love our brothers and sisters, and it is proclaimed in 1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.. The clear meaning here is that we are to love these less than God as illustrated in Scripture. Mt 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
The popular doctrine you are embracing and defending is very contradictory to the word of God and the character and work of the Lord Jesus.
Sorry, that last was Jack's comment continued!
Alfred says: You are "Begging the Question" :-) I have asked several times for a reasonable purpose for the Lord including "eternal" - aionois - with "life" when discussing the reward of coming to know Him. You have assumed there is a reasonable purpose each time (begging) and went on to seek to prove that there is no contradiction in it being there. ... See MoreDifferent question.
Why say "aionois" with "Zoe"? There is no point that the Savior is trying to make which relates to your interpretation. WHY did He put it there?
And, again, many unprejudiced excellent linguists, the overwhelming majority in fact, conclude from uses in original texts that "aionois" does in fact mean "eternal". It is as senseless to keep harking back to the base meaning of the word "aion" as it is to insist that there is some weird purpose to the Hebrew word for "face" always being in the more-than-two plural. Or that "week" in the Greek is sometimes "Sabbaths" (plural). Or that the Hebrew root for "dedicate" is to "destroy". Or that the word for marital relations is to "know". Higher level meanings are crystal clear from the context . . . and, in the case of "aionois", the one who apparently invented the adjective used it in a scholarly article clearly meaning "eternal" as opposed to "age bounded".
Jack Says (part 1): Alfred,
I believe you are serious and sincere. I am confused by your response. Why do you feel the need to “win” the debate even when it does violence to so many verses of Scripture which refer to the stated Will, Love, Mercy and total victory and power of our Lord Jesus Christ?
“You say you have asked repeatedly for a reasonable purpose for the Lord including “eternal” – aionios – with “life” when discussing the reward of coming to know Him…”
I will attempt to rephrase my response:
The reasonable purpose that the Lord would have in using the word mistranslated “eternal” – aionios – with ‘life” –zoe- is to make a distinction between the reward given during the ages, and the gift of life which will eventually be bestowed upon ALL. This is a very reasonable purpose. ... See More
If I were to ask you, “What must I do to have eternal life?” Would you not tell me that I must trust in the Lord Jesus to be saved? Perhaps you would add, “Confess your sins and repent?” “Submit yourself to Jesus as Lord?”
Why then did Jesus reply to the same question with: “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matt 19:17-19
Jesus recognized the question! He was not being asked what it takes to inherit "eternal" life, but “aionios" life.… that is… life pertaining to the age. Therefore He answered with the truth. Keeping the law brings blessing in this life. It keeps us free from the torment of bitterness, guilt and hatred which destroy peace and joy. David affirmed this truth over and over in Psalm 119. Ps 119:72 The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver. Ps 119:92 Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction. 93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened (made alive) me.
When the rich young ruler said, “All these I have kept…” Jesus offered Him a part in what would have been the greatest adventure and experience possible “during the age”. Go sell what you have, give to the poor and come and follow me! But for the pitiful trinkets he counted as treasure and power, he walked away from the most incredible opportunity to receive true power and wealth in his own lifetime. This was very much an aionios decision and not an eternal one.
Another time aionios is used we find: Lu 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting –aionios- habitations.
Do you propose that those you bless with monetary gifts are going to take you to eternal habitations? It is only in their power to provide habitations during this life. (continued next comment)
Jack continues (part 2): Again: Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting -aionios- life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
If everlasting life is what we have after death, why is it spoken of in the present tense? If God’s wrath is the future Hell, why does it abide in the present tense?
… and again: Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting-aionios- life: AND… I will raise him up at the last day.
Talk about words having no purpose… Why would Jesus have to add…AND I will raise him up at the last day??? If aionios means eternal life, why the need to add to it a promise of being raised??? “And” means “in addition to”. But if aionios is referring to the blessing of life during time, the addition of being raised becomes significant, does it not?
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal-aionios- life to as many as thou hast given him.
Aionios life, apparently isn’t for everyone. Narrow is the way which leads to life and few there be who find it. Contrast this with “He IS the savior of ALL men, especially those who believe”.
What is Zoe Aionios?
3 And this is life -zoe- eternal -aionios- , that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Knowing God and knowing Jesus occurs in this life for those who are “specially saved”. All will be saved, but only a few will believe in this life, the rest will be judged and sentenced and will not be released from their prison until they have paid the uttermost farthing. They will receive “righteous judgment” . An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, not more than the just judgment due them.
As for your abhorrence at my premise that aion does not mean eternity, I offer these ancient scholars to speak against your “unprejudiced” linguists.
An exerpt from John Wesley Hansons book THE GREEK WORD AION –AIONIOS TRANSLATED EVERLASTING –ETERNAL IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION -1875
[ The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) defines aión thus: "The life of man, the time of life." At this early date no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the classics, and in the Bible.
Theodoret(9) (A. D. 300-400) "Aión is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man."
John of Damascus (A. D. 750,) says, "1, The life of every man is called aión. . . . 3, The whole duration or life of this world is (continued next commet:)
Jack continues (part 3):called aión. 4, The life after the resurrection is called 'the aión to come.' "
But in the sixteenth century Phavorinus was compelled to notice an addition, which subsequently to the time of the famous Council of 544 had been grafted on the word. He says: "Aión, time, also life, also habit, or way of life. Aión is also the eternal and endless AS IT SEEMS TO THE THEOLOGIAN." Theologians had succeeded in using the word in the sense of endless, and Phavorinus was forced to recognize their usage of it and his phraseology shows conclusively enough that he attributed to theologians the authorship of that use of the word. Alluding to this definition, Rev. Ezra S. Goodwin, one of the ripest scholars and profoundest critics, says,(10) "Here I strongly suspect is the true secret brought to light of the origin of the sense of eternity in aión. The theologian first thought he perceived it, or else he placed it there. The theologian keeps it there, now. And the theologian will probably retain it there longer than any one else. Hence it is that those lexicographers who assign eternity as one of the meanings of aión uniformly appeal for proofs to either theological, Hebrew, or Rabbinical Greek, or some species of Greek subsequent to the age of the Seventy, if not subsequent to the age of the Apostles, so far a I can ascertain." ]
As for the quote you alluded to, by the inventor of the word “aionios” I offer another excerpt from the above book.
(See next comment)
Jack continues (part 4):[AIONIOS.
Aiónios is found in none of the ancient classics above quoted. Finding it in Plato, Mr. Goodwin thinks that Plato coined it, and it had not come into general use, for even Socrates, the teacher of Plato, does not use it. Aidios is the classic word for endless duration.
Plato uses aión eight times, aiónios five, diaiónios once, and makraión twice. Of course if he regarded aión as meaning eternity he would not prefix the word meaning long, to add duration to it.
In all the above authors extending more than six hundred years, the word is never found. Of course it must mean the same as the noun that is its source. It having clearly appeared that the noun is uniformly used to denote limited duration, and never to signify eternity, it is equally apparent that the adjective must mean the same. The noun sweetness gives its flavor to its adjective, sweet. The adjective long means precisely the same as the noun length. When sweet stands for acidity, and long represents brevity, aiónios can properly mean eternal, derived from aión, which represents limited duration. To say that Plato, the inventor of the word, has used the adjective to mean eternal, when neither he nor any of his predecessors ever used the noun to denote eternity, would be to charge one of the wisest of men with etymological stupidity. Has he been guilty of such folly? How does he use the word?
PLATO'S USAGE. ... See More
1. He employs the noun as his predecessors did. I give an illustration*- "Leading a life (aióna) involved in troubles."
2. The Adjective.(30) Referring to certain souls in Hades, he describes them as in aiónion intoxication. But that he does not use the word in the sense of endless is evident from the Phædon, where he says, "It is a very ancient opinion that souls quitting this world, repair to the infernal regions, and return after that, to live in this world." After the aiónion intoxication is over, they return to earth, which demonstrates that the world was not used by him as meaning endless. Again,(31) he speaks of that which is indestructible, (anolethron) and not aiónion. He places the two words in contrast, whereas, had he intended to use aiónion as meaning endless, he would have said indestructible and aiónion. Once more,(32) Plato quotes four instances of aión, and three of aiónios, and one of diaiónios in a single passage, in contrast with aidios (eternal.) The gods he calls eternal, (aidios) but the soul and the corporeal nature, he says, are aiónios, belonging to time, and "all these," he says, "are part of time." And he calls Time [Kronos] an aiónios image of Aiónos. Exactly what so obscure an author may mean here is not apparent, but one thing is perfectly clear, he cannot mean eternity and eternal by aiónios and aiónion, for nothing is wider from the fact than that fluctuating, changing Time, beginning and ending, and full of mutations, is an image of Eternity. It is in every possible particular its exact opposite. ]
Sorry for the lengthy reply. I hope the information here is helpful to you.
Alfred says: :-) There is no way to continue a discussion in this format with the megeblasts we are capable of.
Here was one comment I wanted clarified:
"All will be saved, but only a few will believe in this life, the rest will be judged and sentenced and will not be released from their prison until they have paid the uttermost farthing. They will receive “righteous judgment” . An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, not more than the just judgment due them."... See More
You believe, then, that suffering in Hell DOES pay for sin, similar to the Catholic view of purgatory, correct? Most of us believe that no even one sin can ever be paid for through suffering, but you believe that each sin will turn into so many years in hell at such and such a temperature . . . is that basically correct? (Without quibbling details) I ask that because I thought you previously to have stated that you believe that men will suffer until they repent and bow the knee, and that then they will be sprung out . . .
Jack says: Whether Jesus chooses to release upon repentance, or chooses to exact full payment is really not mine to say. (It seems there is scriptural support for both.) Jesus is just to require payment, and just to forgive debt. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Jesus is the one who said, "Mt 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."
Perhaps this reference is not to be spiritualized? Is that your take on it?
In times when I have been judge over my children for actions that I believed were harful to them, I have pronounced sentences that, even though they repented, they still needed to serve. At other times I have revoked the sentence. In any case the sentence was designed to produce benefit to the child.... See More
In the case of the righteous judge, He is perfect Love, he will never pronounce a sentence that won't ultimately be for the benefit of the transgressor, for if He did it would not be love.
To answer your question more directly, Suffering in Hell is not what saves us, it only works together for our good. Jesus is our only Saviour. There is no other anything, by which we can be saved.Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Alfred says:
"Without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22 No blood shed (death), no remission of sin. So there is NO way for a person to pay for their own sins once they have died. Suffering has never been a means for paying for sin.
Also, in eternity nothing changes, Jack. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11 See that God is COMMANDING a person to remain in the state they were before.
So, Jack . . . what are you going to say to those that trusted you, decided to take the Lord a whole lot let seriously than they would have – read, “not be desperate to be saved” – and then awake to find that their state, as they entered eternity, will remain so forever and ever? I was stunned to have you(Tim?) declare that these matter are “non-essential”. They are the most crucial issues to get right in the universe.... See More
The verses cited (uttermost farthing) is in context referring to the present life. The tit for tat of man vs. man . . . God WILL make a man pay another man the "uttermost farthing". God showed this when he made Israel pay with suffering and loss of life for the sins of Saul against the Gibeonites. But a debt against God CANNOT be paid but by blood.
As to doing things not in love, this has been addressed over and over. He loves all of the time, but He does not love ALL all of the time. If you disagree, please prove me wrong. He loves some and hates those that hate those He loves. And for those that reject the Son of His Love, He WILL laugh at their calamity as He destroys them (Proverbs 1, Psalm 2). If you ignore half of the equation you will come to a wrong conclusion.
Explain to me the love that motivates a father and mother under the Law of Moses to pick up stones and throw them at a rebellious son until they are dead, as God commanded. It is not love, but blind, cold obedience. "Without Mercy" was the standard (Hebrews 10). What love drove Peter to oversee the execution of Ananias and Saphira? Not love, but fear, reverence, and a greater fear of God than concern for their peace and happiness. You can argue that God had a higher purpose . . . but Peter emphatically worked “ill toward His neighbor”. Again, acts of justice under the law are NOT in view in Romans 14, which has to do with man vs. man.
11 hours ago ·
Jack says: Alfred, I say this with respect and a tone of pleading. You are embracing a gospel which is no gospel at all. For the very word, gospel, infers good news!
Lu 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Please note the phrases, "good tidings" great joy" "to ALL people". Not to some only. Unto you... ALL people... is born this day a Saviour.... See More
Your "gospel" brings incredible sorrow rather than the promised great joy, to all but the selfish, for who could be content in heaven while any of their children are in Hell forever? Who could enjoy heaven while the mother who nurtured them burns in agony and hopless despair? Who could enjoy a moment at the river of Life while holding the knowlege of lost best friends or kind neighbors being harmed at the hands of Lucifer and his demons? Anyone that learned to love, could never enjoy a moment of bliss knowing that those they loved are in such endless misery and peril. No, only the selfish could ever be happy in the eternity that your "good news" brings us.
You are professing we love God out of fear! But true love is not generated by fear, rather,
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
You ask, what will I say to those who trusted my message, in the case I am wrong? I ask you, What will you say to The Magnificent Lord of Love Himself when confronted with the fact that you have been making Him out to be a cruel, vicious taskmaster who trashes millions of humans, he once loved, but since they refuse him, his love reaches a limit and in a fit of anger he punishes them and torments them and never allows them to die or escape the torment in any way. What will you say to Him? When you find that millions were shut out from knowing Him and loving Him in this life due to this "gospel" which bears no resemblance to good news?
Do you seriously believe that God wants us to be allied to Him through fear? We love Him because, He first loved us. Who loves more? He who has been forgiven more. Why would God deny himself the love of the millions who will love Him most?
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
35 minutes ago
Jack Says:
By the way, you said that in eternity nothing changes. What makes you think that the verse you quote from Revelations is after time has ended and not merely an event in the next age?
Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.... See More
This seems to me to be during time, the command as you call it seems to be more of an allowance. IF you can show me that this is after time, and it is a command, then I will have to rethink and seriously reconsider my position.
Yesterday at 10:00am ·
Jack Says: I correct myself! What makes you think it hasn't already taken place?
Jack Says: You asked for an explanation of the love which caused men to stone their rebellious children.
It would not be love at all, if they believed they were sending the rebellious children to eternal torment! However, since they had no such concept, they could carry out that command in love. (Is there a record in Scripture of any rebellious children being stoned?) Here is some food for thought for you.
Jesus taught that it is "Better" for you to hang a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea, than to offend one of his little ones. Death by drowning is better than life under the wrath of God. Solomon recognized the peace death brings and the benefit of dying at birth, since you miss out on all the trials and frustrations of life.... See More
Ec 6:3 If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
But I admit, you asked a very hard question and I don't know the complete answer...
So, How do you explain the love that required God to crucify His perfect Son?
I guess when One has mastery over death, death only becomes a tool which He can use to accomplish His will. His will is that none should perish, but that all should come to repentance and He will have His way because He is perfect in power and in love and His mercy endures thru the ages, at which time it will no longer be needed. Hallelujia.
Yesterday at 10:33am ·
Jack Says: As I ponder the stoning question further, I remember a time when the Lord himself was invited to preside over a stoning, and contrary to the law, extended mercy.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?... See More
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Do you suppose He could have won her more thoroughly by stoning her? Love NEVER fails... This succinct phrase has more than one meaning: Love always accomplishes its objective and Love never ends. True love can never change to hatred because it is not based on that which is being loved.
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Nothing can seperate us from the Love of God which is in Christ Jesus! NOTHING!
We may suffer the wrath of His chastening for He chastens those whom He loves. Still His love can NEVER fail!
Yesterday at 11:13am
Jack Says: Correct me if I am wrong. If we break one law, we are guilty of breaking the whole law.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
... See More
Therefore, we are all just as guilty as anyone else!
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
None of us can claim credit for our salvation in any way, shape or form.
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It was not even your choice!
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, ...
Joh 15:19 ... but I have chosen you out of the world....
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
While it is clear that Calvin missed the truth, he was right about predestination. He simply missed God's love because he didn't understand the words Aion and Aionios. I believe it is safe to say he didn't know the Lord, because we know God's disciples by their love. They love unconditionally just like their master does. Jesus, the most powerful man to ever live, never in his brief sojurn on earth is recorded a time that He injured anyone. (Even in the temple He merely drove the theives out.) At His capture, he healed the enemies servant, and at his Crucifixion He cried, Father, forgive them! He never changes, and any translation that suggests otherwise should be scrutinized with the greatest care.
I pray God allows you to know HIm... He is never cruel.
Yesterday at 12:11pm ·
Jack Says: Alfred, I would like to address two more things you said:
Alfred said:... See More
“ The verses cited (uttermost farthing) is in context referring to the present life. The tit for tat of man vs. man . . . God WILL make a man pay another man the "uttermost farthing". God showed this when he made Israel pay with suffering and loss of life for the sins of Saul against the Gibeonites. But a debt against God CANNOT be paid but by blood.”
Are you saying that you will be satisfied for wrongs done to you if the wrong doer’s suffer? How will that add anything to you? Especially when you are safe in Heaven? Will you rejoice to see all your offenders getting extra torment for whatever they have done to you? Will you be repaid by this?
As for debts to God… they have already been paid by blood.
Your words below…
“As to doing things not in love, this has been addressed over and over. He loves all of the time, but He does not love ALL all of the time. If you disagree, please prove me wrong. He loves some and hates those that hate those He loves. And for those that reject the Son of His Love, He WILL laugh at their calamity as He destroys them (Proverbs 1, Psalm 2). If you ignore half of the equation you will come to a wrong conclusion.”
Let’s begin with “He does not love ALL all of the time.”
He so loved the world.
Jesus talks about not resting while even one sheep is lost. Or one coin. Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
He loves his enemies.
Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Are you saying He changes? Or He doesn’t really love His enemies? Or He didn’t really love the world? Where does it say He only loved some of the world? He says if you only love those who love you you are no better than a publican. Are you saying He is no better than a publican?
(continued next comment)
(continued from last comment) Jack Says: Given that the old English word hate is proven to be used for "love less", when it is used to refer to God hating someone, we are forced to understand it as "love less", or else Scripture would be contradicting itself.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Can you deny His love to the whole world when He became the propitiation for it?
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and -the dead- shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 ¶ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
We shall ALL be changed! The dead included! Death is swallowed up in victory, NO STING! No Victory in the Grave! The Law will be fulfilled because we will ALL love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. We will not begrudge anyone their place, for we will be totally aware of our own undeserving situation. No one shall boast. Should we be like the older brother of the prodigal son? The Father rejoiced, this my son who was dead is alive! Will we say “No Fair!” ? Or be like the laborers who worked from sun up till sun down in His vineyard? Will we begrudge the good master giving those who came in after us the same wage he has kindly bestowed on us? I’m happy to have a good master who will be benevolent to all. I’m also glad that He disciplines me. I am better for it, I have more joy as a result. I’m sorry for those who go through their entire life without the peace and joy which come from knowing Him. I’m glad that they shall at last come to know and love Him too! I take comfort in knowing that the difficult path He leads them on will give them a deeper love and appreciation for Him.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first and those who have been forgiven much, love much, but those who have been forgiven little, love little.
Yesterday at 4:13pm ·
Jack Says: Alfred, in your post, dated Saturday @ 10:17PM, you said that, “God Himself does ill to people, when it is in His power to do otherwise.”
We know that God is Love, (1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
We know that His word is perfect. (2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:)
We know that Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.( Ro 13:10) We know that Jesus came to fulfill the law. (Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.)
We know that God never changes. (Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.)... See More
By what authority do you make the claim that God works ill to anyone. Could you be misunderstanding his loving discipline? (Pr 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes. Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.)
And again in the same post you said: “His ultimate justice is “without mercy” and you reference (Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses)
Who executed this judgment without mercy? Didn’t the elders of the land execute this punishment? If it was God who did so, then how did He avoid violating the Scriptures which repeat over and over again that His mercy endureth forever.
How can a God who loves His enemies and who never changes, work ill towards His enemies without violating His own word. How can a God who never changes be merciful one day and withhold mercy forever the next day?
It is clear in Scripture that departure from this life, (death), is not the worst thing. Ec 6:3-5 indicates that a full life is not as good as dying in infancy. So to say that God works ill toward anyone by taking their life is to not understand God’s power after life. He is able to cause all things to work together for good. We will all see it when we love Him, we will all love Him when we know Him. We will love Him because He first loved us and His love will never fail. He holds the keys to death and Hell. Keys are for unlocking. Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised…
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come;
Yesterday at 4:17pm ·
Alfred Says: You KNOW there is no way to respond to all of this . . . not in one thread. Are you planning on posting responses back and forth? Do I respond here . . . and you handle the dirty work . . . or do I post there . . . or what?
I have a question for you: If God came to you - and there was no question that it was the Lord - and said that He chose to cast people into eternal hell fire, what would you do?
Yesterday at 11:22pm ·
Jack Says: Good questions! Except the last one ;P LOL. I do like the other site better cause on this format I am not able to copy and paste your comments once they say...See More - which makes it more difficult to respond clearly. I was waiting for all the comments to get transferred in the hope of keeping things in order before I begin posting there.
If God came to me, and said that He chose to cast people into eternal hell fire, what would I do? Perhaps I'd ask if He was sending me too? After all, it would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I didn't know Him very well. If He then said," no, you get to go to heaven with me." My ever selfish heart would be relieved for my sake and would probably try to forget anyone who didn't make it. I suppose I would always have to be suspicious that He might change His mind and throw me into Hell too, since He changed regarding the others He said He loved too. I sure would be nervous about doing something wrong. I doubt I would ever have the courage to ask Him why the father sent him to save the whole world and He didn't. I doubt I would have the courage to ask Him why He couldn't change His mind and deliver the poor wretched souls after say the first quatrillion years. After all He saved me, and I had broken the whole law and was abnoxiously proud for such a large part of my life. As great and powerful as He is, and capable of such a horrendous merciless wrath, I probably would only collapse and faint in His presence. I guess that would make heaven like hell? How could I trust Him, when He claimed to be love and yet acted in such hatred? It is hard to imagine spending eternity with your God. The God I serve is so much better. He is perfect. He LOVES everybody, so it's easy to trust Him. He is kind, tender, merciful, joyful, strong, gentle, meek, powerful, good, always giving, protecting, loving. He is easy to approach, interesting to talk with and He can really sing. There is nothing I like better than being with Him. He knows me by name, and He knows me intimately. He is purging all my faults and one day I will be among all the inhabitants of the earth that ever were, and we will all be delighting in Him and worshipping Him for His goodness to the children of men.
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever....
(continued next comment)
Jack says: But why do you ask such a hypothetical question?
Alfred Says: I appreciate your sentiments, Jack, but I wonder if you realize what you said. If God didn't choose to do what you think is right, it would make heaven into hell. Your standards, your mercy, your righteousness is as least as significant if not more signiifant than the Lord's. You would consider yourself more holy than He.
This is what Charles Finey came to when faced with exactly the same scenario. In old age the devil played tricks with his mind and he came to the conclusion that he could never be saved, must spend eternity in hell [Which he emphatically believed in, BTW] As he quailed over this for some time, this is what he writes:
"But directly I was enabled to fall back upon the perfect will of God. I said to the Lord, that if He saw it was wise and best, and that His honor demanded that I should be left to be deluded, and go down to hell, I accepted His will, and I said to Him, "Do with me as seemeth Thee good."... See More
Just at evening, the question arose in my mind, "What if God should send me to hell,—what then?" "Why, I would not object to it." "But can He send a person to hell," was the next inquiry, "who accepts His will in the sense in which you do?" This inquiry was no sooner raised in my mind than settled. I said, "No, it is impossible. Hell could be no hell to me, if I accepted God's perfect will." This sprung a vein of joy in my mind, that kept developing more and more, for weeks and months, and indeed I may say, for years. For years my mind was too full of joy to feel much exercised with anxiety on any subject." God's perfect will, even if completely against all he held dear, was the basis of his existence . . . and, of course, quickly loosed him from the devil's confusion. http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Finney/HigherLife.html
You said heaven would be hell if God did not choose your will . . . for him hell would be heaven, because of his love for the Lord and confidence in His perfect will.
Jonathan Edwards had a similar experience when he was saved. He believed in the (I believe very wrong) tenets of Calvinism, of being chosen to be saved or lost at the time. He horribly quailed and quailed, for he could find no confidence that he was "elect". Then he read 1 Tim. 1:17: "The ONLY wise God" . . . and it dawned on him that God is the wisest . . . and he could accept God's will on the matter as the very best. That, of course, suddenly became the fountain of joy as he realized that that is the essence of being saved, elect: Accepting God's will (on myself, on Jesus, His work on calvary).
I think you are far too concerned about your own emotions and sensibilities. Can you let God to be God? Job said (13:15) "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him" Can you trust Him even if He would slay your loved ones in eternal hell?
9 hours ago ·
Jack Says: Pardon me Alfred, but You beg the question.
Furthermore,
Both Charles Finney and Jonathan Edwards believed emphatically in an eternal Hell. Had they been allowed the grace to see the truth on the matter, they never would have had to go through the agony of thought which produced those sentiments. They are both better than me, because I can't bear the thought of "eternally" being shut up from Him. I have come to love Him too much. Without Him I would wither and die, there would be no content in my soul that could survive. I would spend eternity in endless insanity. If this pleased the one I love, so be it, but the results to me would be devastating.
... See More
I can easily say, though He slay me, yet will I trust Him. I can easily trust Him to put my entire family through Hell. I can trust Him to bring tragedy here on earth as He did for Job. These would all be for His glory and my improvement.
I am in no way better than God, even if He be as you describe, He is wiser, more powerful, and better than me in every conceivable way. I can affirm this because I know myself. Many times I would have been unmerciful to enemies to the nth degree had it been in my power to do so. Do you desire a complete confession of all my faults? I could go on for pages.
Your question was based on your hypothesis, and I did my best in my imagination to give you an honest answer.
Was your question given as an honest attempt to help me see, or rather as an attempt to trap me in arguement as a tool to help you win debate? Be honest with yourself.
God is God, this requires no "permission" on my part. He has opened my eyes to a section of truth, to which He has apparently not given you access. I don't know why He has done this, but I am trying with my whole heart to show it to you. I am praying daily that God open your eyes to see what has become crystal clear to me.
When He does open your eyes, it will bring both freedom and blessing to you. Not If...when.
6 hours ago ·
Jack Says: 1Ti 4:9 THIS IS A FAITHFUL SAYING and WORTHY OF ALL ACCEPTATION,
10 For therefore we both LABOUR and SUFFER REPROACH, because WE TRUST in THE LIVING GOD, who IS the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.
11 THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH.
5 hours ago ·
Jack Says: Could it be any clearer than this?
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;... See More
4 WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified IN DUE TIME.
5 hours ago
This should be the end of my transferring comments! :)
Thanks Tim for all that work. I appreciate that.
I am trying to post a lengthy response to your last lengthy response, Jack . . . It is limiting me to 4K. Do you also have that limit?
I am willing to address your concerns as I am able, provided that I have breathing room. We are in the middle of 2 weeks of nightly "Gospel Meetings" at the moment, so time is scarce. Not that you have endless time yourself.
No, Jack . . . this is a primary issue. And I was not trapping you, although I was not surprised at your answer. I believe that you are not able to let God be God . . . He can only be the God you understand, even desire Him to be. Instead of being judged by the law, you have become a judge of the law.
I do not believe in eternal hell because I want it . . . I do because I must. As did Finney and Edwards and hosts of others. It is not because I am incapable of understanding your arguments . . . it is not because I have to have hell to be happy, if such a thing were possible. I have no loyalty to a particular creed or church - I have broken ranks over some deeply held doctrines with some I fellowship with. I testify that you are wresting the Scripture to your own destruction and of those that listen to you.
A heart of faith and obedience says, "God owes me no explanation - I will obey even if it makes no sense". There is so much solemnity, so much awfulness if you are wrong, so much you even know of the human heart's ability to err, so much that would come from reverence of godly men who earnestly disagree with you, that your words would be short, your listening long. You would not be repeatedly speaking so condescendingly as a man who has arrived at the well of insight kept from virtually all whom you once considered spiritual giants around you and through the ages.
"I cannot bear the thought" is the crux . . . you, your thoughts, your emotions, your sense of justice is driving this. The Scriptures HAVE to agree with you, for it cannot be otherwise.
I have addressed the "Saviour of All Men" statement elsewhere - in fact, if you look back, I brought it up first between us. He is the Savior (2 Tim), the Teacher (John 6), the Chastizer (Ps. 94:10) of ALL men, whom He wants to be saved. John 6 addresses this clearly - All are taught of the Father, but those that HEAR and COME are saved and receive eternal life. He constantly seeking the lost, seeking to save them - the ones that believe are permanently saved (spirit), are being saved (soul/mind) and will be saved (body), so are the special fulfillment of all His purposes.
This understanding is consistent with 1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. " The implication is that the believers, including Timothy, who did NOT take heed would miss out on parts of that practical "salvation" which is part of God's grand salvation plan once we are "Saved".
Paul's statement answers the Calvinist, who believes He is only the Savior of the Elect. The Coast Guard is the Savior of any boat that is legally sailing it its waters (legal, potential scope of salvation) - but only those who call and accept the help get saved (actual, special scope of salvation).
As long as you believe God will force His will on those upon whom He has bound Himself to not force His will, you will err, either as a Calvinist or a Universalist. I would rather you were a Calvinist - the Universalist stands before a black pit into which he and those that follow him will fall. Look at the fruit, Jack . . . can you show me any denomination that believes as you do which, after the run of a generation or two has not descended into open iniquity? Let alone stopped preaching the Gospel? I asked Tim that, I received no answer.
This is the certain outcome when one removes the Fear of the Lord, even as you have stated ("Love removes all fear"), ignoring all of the commandments to both believer and unbeliever to "Fear". "By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." Proverbs 16:6 4-5 "And I say unto you my friends . . . Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Jesus commands us to fear God because of Hell . . . how can you tell me that God does not want people to fear? This is out of balance.
Alfred,
I have prepared about four pages on a MSWord document in reply to your last comment, but as I read back, I realized that there are too many things in my previous comments that haven't yet been acknowleged or addressed by you. So, I'm just going to wait until you have had a fair chance to respond. Hopefully this will allow us to be a bit more efficient in our discussion.
No, Jack . . . please just take up the last response. Otherwise we will get totally lost . . . I have having enough trouble getting to this and the attention it deserves. Feel free to refer back to things already written if you want to avoid redundancy.
Perhaps instead of dumping 4 pages you could address the major issue here, then break sub-discussions off as their own thread. If you come up with 4 pages in response to my 4096 characters post(s), I would have to respond with 16 times that :-)
Much love
-Alfred
Following is your post Alfred, in it’s entirety, with my individual responses to each statement.
ACorduan said...
No, Jack . . . this is a primary issue. And I was not trapping you, although I was not surprised at your answer. I believe that you are not able to let God be God . . . He can only be the God you understand, even desire Him to be. Instead of being judged by the law, you have become a judge of the law.
Jack replied:
I am coming to conclusions based, NOT on my desires, but based on clear Scripture references that I have quoted and many that I have not yet quoted. Where am I judging the Law? We are told: 1Th 5:21 “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” As I read Scripture, I find hundreds of verses that contradict the tradition of “eternal” judgment, and only a few that support it, and these few are derived directly or indirectly from the misinterpretation of two Greek root words and one Hebrew word, which according to the Septuagint scholars, share the identical meaning. Is it somehow a crime on my part that the Scripture seems to be pointing to the more desirous outcome? Should I shrink from it and be ashamed because I happen to like it better than the theory you put forth? I base my understanding on facts found in history, etymology, lexicography, and usage at the time of writing, and the abundant evidence found in hundreds of Bible verses which when taken in their most obvious meaning tell of the Almighty, All knowing, Creator who loves His creation especially the creature made in His own image, and who is in the process of reconciling the entire world to Himself, who works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, who saves not by the will of man but by His will, who will ultimately destroy death, his LAST enemy,( indicating that all have already been reconciled to Him at this point.) No, I am not basing my conclusion on my desire, but on evidence. It is appropriate, though, that the end of the matter is very desireable.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do EXCEEDING ABUNDANTLY ABOVE all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages…
Alfred said:
“I do not believe in eternal hell because I want it . . . I do because I must. As did Finney and Edwards and hosts of others. It is not because I am incapable of understanding your arguments . . . it is not because I have to have hell to be happy, if such a thing were possible. I have no loyalty to a particular creed or church - I have broken ranks over some deeply held doctrines with some I fellowship with. I testify that you are wresting the Scripture to your own destruction and of those that listen to you. “
Jacks reply:
You must? Do you not have free will to believe according to what you understand? If God says He will abolish death, aren’t you free to believe Him? If God says, Jesus is the Saviour of the world, in addition to being the special savior of those who believe why aren’t you free to believe Him? To what do you attribute your bondage to believe the worst? Knowing the truth will set you free!
You misjudge yourself, you most certainly do have an intense loyalty to what I believe to be the false doctrine of eternal damnation, so much so, that sound reasoning from the word of God makes not the slightest dent in your armor. You have already decided that what I am saying cannot be true before you heard a single argument. This is obvious by the fact that you have not acknowledged a single point in all the things I’ve shared from the beginning,
I am WRESTLING with the Scripture, seeking to find the truth to the fullest degree allowed me, but I am not WRESTING it at all. As for my destruction, I have received insult, and rejection from many as a result of the conclusions I have come to but I rejoice in the fellowship of suffering. My Lord told me it would be like this. If they have rejected me, they will reject you also He said. Otherwise there has been no destruction, but rather blessing. My personal walk with the Master has grown to be more precious, more important, more fulfilling, more meaningful, more powerful, and it continues to grow, not based on my performance but on His love, His strength, His tender mercy. If this is the destruction you speak of may it increase. The grace to love others is increased exponentially as well, now that I understand God’s love for each person, and His delight when I treat them as He would treat them, it is a delight to meet anyone. As for your caution regarding the ones that listen to me…We are charged by God Himself to preach the Gospel, not the bad news. We are charged: 1Ti 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. In addition we are charged: Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. If “these things include the destruction of most, in a most horrendous never ending scenario as the doctrine you so staunchly defend teaches, then how do we reconcile these commands? Where is the virtue in eternal damnation? Where is the praise? Where is the loveliness? Where is the Good report?
Alfred said:
A heart of faith and obedience says, "God owes me no explanation - I will obey even if it makes no sense".There is so much solemnity, so much awfulness if you are wrong, so much you even know of the human heart's ability to err, so much that would come from reverence of godly men who earnestly disagree with you, that your words would be short, your listening long. You would not be repeatedly speaking so condescendingly as a man who has arrived at the well of insight kept from virtually all whom you once considered spiritual giants around you and through the ages.
Jack’s reply:
True! God owes me nothing. I owe Him everything. His word exhorts me to rightly divide the word of truth. When this concept (Hell is not eternal), first was introduced to me it brought me significant consternation because I didn’t know if it was true or false, but it had far reaching implications beyond my ability to apprehend. I cried out to God, and at the time He assured me through the word that I didn’t have to know. He took me to a place in Daniel where Daniel was all frustrated cause he didn’t understand a revelation… then God revealed to him a vision and told him not to tell anyone… There are some things we don’t all need to know, and God is not obligated to tell us anything. He has however told us much and much of what He’s revealed is hidden. When He opens our eyes, we know. When He doesn’t we just can’t see it. God opened your eyes to believe that He has provided Salvation through Jesus Christ for you, something He has not allowed others to see for themselves. You know it, yet you can’t convince anyone who is still blind. From their perspective you appear to be condescending and they doubt that you could really know Jesus and know that Jesus has offered them Salvation as well. God has opened my eyes to another truth and that is that His Salvation will reach all men in due time. It is not to my glory or credit, nor to your discredit. In fact, if anything it puts you in the category of being wise and prudent and me in the category of being a baby. Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. You said: A heart of faith and obedience says, "God owes me no explanation - I will obey even if it makes no sense". What is it I am not obeying? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. I am obeying the command to command and teach these things… that Jesus is the Saviour of all men specially of those who believe. I am obeying the command to love God and love my neighbor, and I’m more than willing to follow Him wherever He leads.
Alfred said:
"I cannot bear the thought" is the crux . . . you, your thoughts, your emotions, your sense of justice is driving this. The Scriptures HAVE to agree with you, for it cannot be otherwise.
Jacks reply:
Okay, my turn for a hypothetical question. You just found out that you had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, you are dead and standing before God and Jesus and they inform you, sorry, you must go to hell, you blew it. Is your first reaction “I’m happy to obey you my righteous judge?” Does it enter your mind that the one you love with all your heart and soul and mind and strength has just rejected you forever? Or are you more concerned with your own personal situation, your fate? I expressed above that I could not bear the eternal separation from my greatest love, the one in whom I hoped, trusted and loved with all my heart soul mind and strength and you say this is the krux of my problem? If I had not gotten to know the Lord in the revelation of Himself He has mercifully granted me, I would never have been given the grace to love Him this much. It’s not that the Scriptures agree with me but I am agreeing with them, for they are the foundation upon which this belief stands. Not on my desires. My desires merely happen to be in line with what My King is doing.
Alfred said:
I have addressed the "Saviour of All Men" statement elsewhere - in fact, if you look back, I brought it up first between us. He is the Savior (2 Tim), the Teacher (John 6), the Chastizer (Ps. 94:10) of ALL men, whom He wants to be saved. John 6 addresses this clearly - All are taught of the Father, but those that HEAR and COME are saved and receive eternal life. He constantly seeking the lost, seeking to save them - the ones that believe are permanently saved (spirit), are being saved (soul/mind) and will be saved (body), so are the special fulfillment of all His purposes.
Jack replies:
Your addressing of the Scriptural statement is not at all compelling! He IS the Saviour of ALL, it’s the Father’s will that He save all, He came to accomplish all that the Father wills. He said He finished the work He was sent to do, and yet you say that being the Saviour of ALL is merely a platitude. A nice title with very limited meaning. You are wresting scripture here! He either saves all or He is only the savior of those he saves. If you claimed to be the barber of all, yet only gave 20 people haircuts in your life, your claim would be false. If you claimed to be the master of all, yet were only the master of 3 million your claim would be false. If you claimed to understand all, yet lacked understanding in one point, you would be either deceived or lying. If you claimed to be the savior of all and saved all but one, your claim would be false. How can you attribute such a false claim to the all knowing, almighty God? You do not deny that He paid for the sins of the whole world. Why do you deny Him the accomplishment of the task? Why do you deny Him the purchased possession?
Alfred says:
“He is the savior of ALL men, whom He wants to be saved. John 6 addresses this clearly - All are taught of the Father, but those that HEAR and COME are saved and receive eternal life.”
Jack replies:
Okay, I agree with this…and I ask… who does God want to be saved? Let’s see, He is the propitiation for not only ours but also for the sins of the whole world… one might suppose that if someone gave his life for the whole world that He wanted to save the whole, don’t you think? He affirmed that it isn’t His will that any should perish, So we agree, He will save everyone He wants to be saved and that is clearly everyone. All WILL hear and come in due time.
Alfred said:
This understanding is consistent with 1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. " The implication is that the believers, including Timothy, who did NOT take heed would miss out on parts of that practical "salvation" which is part of God's grand salvation plan once we are "Saved".
Jack’s reply:
Let’s look briefly at the doctrine Paul shared earlier in the same letter.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth ALL LONFSUFFERING, FOR A PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 WHO WILL have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who IS the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.11 These things command and teach.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
The implication is that the believers, including Timothy, who did NOT take heed would miss out on parts of that aionios "salvation" which is part of God's grand salvation plan once we are all "Saved". Paul’s doctrine is clearly teaching the Salvation of all and commanding us to command and teach the same.
Alfred said:
Paul's statement answers the Calvinist, who believes He is only the Savior of the Elect.
Jack:
NO Argument here!
Alfred said:
The Coast Guard is the Savior of any boat that is legally sailing in its waters (legal, potential scope of salvation) - but only those who call and accept the help get saved (actual, special scope of salvation).
Jack’s reply:
Nothing against the Coast Guard Alfred, and in fact I would dearly love for this to be true, as I spend a fair amount of time in the waters they patrol. but alas the facts do not allow it. The reality is that the Coast Guard has been the savior of a fair number of vessels, but it is not nor ever can be the savior of all the vessels nor is it referred to as such. There are multitudes of cases where the Coast Guard has saved vessels without consent, and even more multitudes where the Coast Guard has not saved those who have called and desired their help. Could you direct me to some instance where the Coast Guard is referred to as the Savior of All the boats in their waters? I searched the internet and found individuals who have been saved by the Coast Guard referring to them as their saviors, but no general statement proclaiming the Coast Guard as the Savior of All vessels in their waters. Why is this? Because it would be an absurd statement unless they never failed to save a vessel.
Alfred said:
As long as you believe God will force His will on those upon whom He has bound Himself to not force His will, you will err, either as a Calvinist or a Universalist.
Jack replied:
Where did God bind himself not to force His will? If it were God’s will to send multitudes to Hell forever, wouldn’t he need to force that will on the victims?
Quite frankly, what will take more force? Delivering men from destruction or sending them to it? What are men more likely to resist? Heaven or Hell?
Furthermore, I seem to remember, correct me if I’m wrong, you advocating the idea that when every knee bows that it is a forced submission just before final casting away? Wouldn’t that be God imposing His will? Or are they willingly worshipping Him? If they are, where is His eternal mercy? Interesting enough, but your doctrine tamples mens will much more than mine. Mine see’s a transformation of man’s will to that of God’s. Not my will but thine! That is the ultimate victory, to gain the willing submission and faithful allegiance of your enemies. Only True Love can accomplish such a feat.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Alfred said:
I would rather you were a Calvinist - the Universalist stands before a black pit into which he and those that follow him will fall.
Jack said:
I suspect the reason you say that, is truly because it’s easy to prove Calvinists are in error, but you are not able to refute the truths which I have been consistently sharing with you.
Alfred:
Look at the fruit, Jack . . . can you show me any denomination that believes as you do which, after the run of a generation or two has not descended into open iniquity? Let alone stopped preaching the Gospel? I asked Tim that, I received no answer.
Jack replies:
First of all, denominations are divisions in the body of Christ. Jesus prayed: That they may be one as we are one. In my opinion, all denominations have some bad fruit. Do you consider the congregation you belong to to be a stellar example of what the church is meant to be? Paul didn’t belong to a denomination and He believed this doctrine. He said, Ac 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. He spoke of the abolishing of death, He said that as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive, he proclaimed many times and in many ways that all will be received in due time, but he never once taught about eternal Hell or eternal judgment or eternal torment. Curious that he missed that point when he claims to have declared to his hearers the WHOLE counsel of God. From Paul’s preaching and example I see lots of enduring good fruit.
Alfred:
This is the certain outcome when one removes the Fear of the Lord, even as you have stated ("Love removes all fear"), ignoring all of the commandments to both believer and unbeliever to "Fear". "By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." Proverbs 16:6 4-5 "And I say unto you my friends . . . Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." Jesus commands us to fear God because of Hell . . . how can you tell me that God does not want people to fear? This is out of balance.
Jack said:
I’m glad you brought this up! Let’s clear one thing up, I am not the author of the statement you attribute to me. It comes from Scripture:
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
Fear is not for mature believers because mature believers are made perfect in love and love casts out fear. Love casts out torment.
Ps 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom: a GOOD UNDERSTANDING have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
What are his commandments? That we LOVE as HE LOVES. This love brings a good understanding as it also casts out fear.
Pr 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
To know Jesus, who He really is, Almighty, Perfect Love, Great Physician, Provider, always merciful, Meek, One who won’t quench a smoking flax. The Good Shepherd who gives his life for the sheep. Who can separate US from the Love of God which is in Christ Jesus???? No one and nothing! Not even our own will for He will persuade us to come to Him by loving us first. His Love Can Never Fail.
This is in perfect balance and it is GOOD!
Thank you so much Alfred, for taking the time to discuss this important topic with me. I sincerely appreciate you and look forward to your next thoughtful response.
Love in Christ,
Jack
Jack, Jack . . . pick a point, and make it . . . there is NO way (Greek "ou me") I can respond to all of this! Hardly read and digest. I will try to print this out and pick something . . . but the blow by blow response will never work. I just don't have the time.
Jesus was able to take down a boatload of arguments with a few key questions and points. Hit me with your best point, then let me respond. I will try to do the same.
Can I start new topics? I would love to. Can we start threads on: The Fear of the Lord . . . . Savior of all Men . . . Jesus Wins in the End . . . or even pick a favorite definitive verse/section, like Luke 16. How about "The Fruit of Universalism" . . . as we are told, by the fruit will we know (the leprosy test - lock it up, let time pass, then look at it).
That way the information we provide back and forth will have some order to it.
"I find hundreds of verses that contradict the tradition of “eternal” judgment, and only a few that support it"
I have not seen any Scripture to suggest that hell is temporary that cannot be better explained another way. Many Scriptures you attempt to interpret that way produce meanings that clearly violate the context . . . Also, I am constantly asking myself, "If He wanted to say that Hell is temporary, how would He have said this?" The results are completely inconsistent with your conclusions.
But . . . call my bluff. Start off with 1-2 of your favorite Scriptures to prove temporary Hell as separate threads and let's discuss them individually. One thing I had over on Facebook was the ability to start conversations, which I do not here. At the very least, pleast post 1-2 of MY verses that emphatically speak about eternal Hell, and let's discuss those.
Alfred,
I'm dissappointed in your response. It has no content. I addressed every single point in your last comment, point by point in what seemed to me to be a clear and non stretched reply. In essence this is like a panorama view which can be zoomed in on to see clear focus or zoomed out to see continuity of subject. What you seem to need is to be so zoomed in that apart from continuity you can appear to have a valid point. IF you want to pick just one thing to address, and are unable to address the whole picture then proceed however you wish. Personally, I would prefer to expand the picture, without losing detail in any area. Even though I realize that it takes longer to paint the whole picture, to me the time is well spent.
I invite you to take one point ,reply, and I will respond, if you prefer to do it that way.
Maybe you could explain how the coast guard is the savior of all the boats in their waters?
Maybe this would be a better place to start.
you said,
Also, I am constantly asking myself, "If He wanted to say that Hell is temporary, how would He have said this?"
I reply:
This question illustrates clearly that you have not heeded anything I've offered regarding aion and aionios. Yet you have never refuted the evidence I have presented regarding its historical use; It's ancient lexicography; or it's etymology.
-
-
-
-
-
He would have called it AIONIOS if he wanted to indicate its temporary nature.
He might even have said that it was cast into the Lake of Fire.
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into AIONIOS fire.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into AIONIOS fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into AIONIOS punishment: but the righteous into life AIONIOS. (Life in Christ) Joh 17:3 And this is life AIONIOS, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath OU ES AION (NOT IN THIS AGE) forgiveness, but is in danger of AIONIOS damnation
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with AIONIOS destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of AIONIOS judgment.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of AIONIOS fire.
Answer me this. If aionios fire is eternal, then why are Sodom and Gomorah all delivered and restored according to Ezekiel 16.
If He wanted to convey the idea of eternal hell, why didn't He ever use words which mean eternal, like aidios (eternal), or aphthartos (undecaying; incorruptible) or akatalutos ( endless )? Why did He always say aionios? Why did Plato, whe one credited with coining the word,(aionios) never use it as eternal but consistently use it as pertaining to time?
You might ask me, "Is anything called aionios restricted from being also eternal?"
I would answer, No! Aionios means pertaining to an age. It is certainly possible to be related to or pertaining to an age and also pertain to another age, and also pertain to timelessness. Aionios does not limit duration it merely informs the listener that whatever is being talked about does pertain to an age or ages.
Even though God pertains to the ages, He also pertains to eternity, that's why He is spoken of as immortal, incorruptible, and after the similitude of and endless life. Hell never gets these affirmations. But we do!
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Let's just pick one of your aionois verses:
"Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath OU ES AION (NOT IN THIS AGE) forgiveness, but is in danger of AIONIOS damnation"
I am baffled what you read in this to support your position. The Aion (eon) timeframe is clearly contrasted with aionois (eternal) condemnation. He is condemned in this age . . . and in danger of being so eternally.
Aion is to Aionois in the Greek as the Latin aevum "age" is to its derivative, eternal "ageless"
Everyone knows that eternal means . . . "eternal". The fact that the root means "age", a specific timeframe, does NOT change its meaning.
Plus the usage of words changes over time! It is important what the word meant to the writer . . . and how the context clarifies it. I see this verse is a prime example of the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove.
The overwhelming majority of trained Biblical language linguists understand aionois to mean "eternal". This you cannot refute. You may like the ones that have aionois as "age-bounded" better, but that is the minority position. IF you want to convince me that hell is not eternal, you will have to do better then the linguistic proofs you have offered, because they are completely unconvincing to me.
"The Gospel is 'Good News', so can have nothing to do with bad news" (my paraphrase)
The good news of amnesty for illegal aliens comes with the bad news that if they delay or refuse, their opportunity is lost forever.
The Gospel is the most awesome news, that sinners do not need to go to hell.
The "Good News" tells sinners that God WILL judge men . . . and they must receive the free gift of salvation or they will not escape.
Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Here is another one
1 Peter 1:25 "But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
The Gospel focuses on the Word of God . . . which endures for aionois. How long DOES the Word of the Lord endure? That is how long heaven and hell are.
On the Coast Guard:
Focus on the point being made instead of quibbling with the analogy. Take the blessing of Citizenship . . . the potential, legal scope of people being airlifted by the Embassy out of a dangerous situation is limited to US citizens. For any that refuse (and some do), there is no salvation. Those that show up on time and take the helicopter out are the only ones saved. The Marines are the Saviors of all Americans - that is their charter - but after calling, pleading, waiting as long as possible, they only get to save the obedient ones.
"You might ask me, "Is anything called aionios restricted from being also eternal?"
I would answer, No! Aionios means pertaining to an age. It is certainly possible to be related to or pertaining to an age and also pertain to another age, and also pertain to timelessness. Aionios does not limit duration "
OK . . . don't back away from this one!
I HOPE we can move our discussions away from what aionois means . . . if you believe the meaning of "age-bounded" or "eternal" is defined solely by the context, let's focus our attention there. The meaning debate is hard for me, because, as I said, I CAN'T find what you find in the nuances of the Greek word. It does violence the principles of etymology that I know.
Will you concede that Aion does not always mean eternal?
Will you concede that Aionios is the adjective form of Aion?
If the answer to either of these is no, I will assume that the second question is not the problem but the first.
If you say that Aion always means eternal or forever or even the weaker form of from now on forever, I would ask you to explain these three verses:
Mt 13:39 the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end (sunteleia) of the world (aion); and the reapers are the angels.
Mt 24:3 and as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end (sunteleia) of the world? (Aion) (sunteias tou aionos)
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end (sunteleia) of the world (aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Sunteleia according to Strongs - from 4931; entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end.
Why would God use Sunteleia in association with aion unless Aion carried the meaning of something that has an end?
I’m going to assume now that you have chosen to agree with the first premise, that aion, at the very best, might mean eternal sometimes but sometimes it means something that has an end.
If aion means “eternity” sometimes and “something having an end” sometimes, then we would have to determine which it means each time it is used by the context, would we not? That is, by the other words around it. (I am not saying it means more than one thing, but I believe you are and so I say “if”.)
Let’s say for arguments sake that aionios, when it modifies aion as an eternity means eternal and when it modifies aion as age it means age related.
Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Aionios)
How do we know which aionios we are talking about here? Is it eternal or is it age related?
Well, we know that life is related to the time in which we live and to eternity since death will be abolished, so by the context we cannot determine from this verse alone which of these two definitions should be applied.
We also know that punishment can be related to this time, and we assume if the popular doctrine is correct that punishment will continue forever, but do we have any scripture that testifies of eternal punishment?
You would say, yes, there is plenty, but I have searched and every time I thought I found a verse that testified of eternal punishment, or fire, or damnation etc. I found it was defined by aion or aionios except the fire that shall not be quenched (asbestos fire)? Scripture has references to fire that cannot be quenched, but a bunch of them have since burned themselves out. Hmmm? Well, no one quenched them, but they are no longer burning.
The reasoning goes like this:
We know Hell is eternal, therefore when aion or aionios is used in conjunction with Hell it means eternal.
We know that aion means eternal because it is used to describe God and we know God is eternal, and furthermore it is used in the same verse with eternal life, therefore it has to mean eternal.
We know that life in this verse is eternal because it is defined by aionios.
Of course aionios means eternal because here it is talking about eternal life…. And in the very same verse, this very same word is used to define punishment.
Since we know that life has to be eternal, we know that punishment has to be eternal too!
We can go round and round but aren’t we begging the question? At the very least it is circular reasoning.
To determine hell; or judgment; or punishment; or torment; or destruction or death or sin to be eternal, we need to have it shown by a word which doesn’t’ have the potential to mean the antithesis to endless, which is age related. To conclude that something is eternal because it is defined by aionios is folly.
God is immortal - 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal…the only wise God….
Man must put on immortality - 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Jesus - Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord … is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. (Akatalutos Zoe)
Now, Alfred. It is incumbent upon you, to show where the Bible teaches that Hell, damnation, judgment, death and sin or the lake of fire, are said to be without end, immortal, incorruptible, enduring forever, or eternal.
I have been keeping an eye out for twenty years or so, but I admit, I may have missed it. I thought I found proof of eternal damnation several times, but each time the proof eluded me.
Please when you reply, give me verses which show the eternal nature of Hell etc without using the words aionios and aion.
Saviors …
It took a bit of digging but I finally found what I believe you were referring to regarding the United States Marine Charter. I found this on the U.S. Marine Corps Information website. I also found that the USMC has hundreds of “charters” from their IT purchasing program to their motorcycle club. Perhaps there is a charter that makes another claim of the Marines being the Saviors of All Americans? However I couldn’t find it. If the following is not what you were referring to please give me a reference.
I recommend the reader skip to the last paragraph, as there is nothing in the first three referring to saviors, but I included the whole creed in case it is of interest.
MARINE CORPS CREED
This is my rifle; There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My rifle, without me is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoot me. I will...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that counts. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn it's weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will ever guard it against the ravages of weather and damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before god I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of my enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace!
Do I have to comment on this? God’s word makes the claim that Jesus is the savior of ALL.
This Creed only claims that the marines are the saviors of their own lives, and rightly so, if they survive. If they fail to save themselves then their claim was false. Just as if God fails to save all, His claim becomes false, which makes His word false, which makes Him to be either not all knowing or a liar. Perhaps it is a translation error, or perhaps the whole book of Timothy shouldn’t have been canonized. These are some serious allegations. Which one do you go with? Enough of your vague smoke screens on the use of the word Savior. If you are going to make any more, please include references and quotes so we can see that it is reasonable to use the phrase Savior of All when only some are actually saved. This will save a lot of time.
ACorduan said...
The good news of amnesty for illegal aliens comes with the bad news that if they delay or refuse, their opportunity is lost forever.
The Gospel is the most awesome news, that sinners do not need to go to hell.
You consistently take half a phrase or half a truth and refute it with what would be true if only half the statement were made. For instance, with Savior of all, you point out that there are many saviors, but you consistently ignore the ALL part of the equation.
Here the Gospel is more than just good news. It is good news of GREAT JOY which SHALL be to ALL people. Deal with the whole phrase. Is amnesty good news of great joy to those who don’t get it? Is it good news of great joy to the amputee that He didn’t need to get an amputation? Is it good news of great joy to the prisoner who was pardoned from a life sentence, if he chooses not to accept it? It might be good news, but where is the great joy except in the accepting of it.
Notice the verse says, …good tidings of great joy, which SHALL BE TO ALL PEOPLE.
This phrase implies two things:
Shall- the angel does not say “MAY be to all people”, does not say “COULD be to all people”, doesn’t say “is MADE AVAILABLE to all people”. No, the message is emphatic. This good tidings of great joy SHALL be to all people.
The second thing it implies is that it is not yet good news of great joy to all people. No, but it SHALL be.
Ro 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, IN DUE TIME, Christ died for the ungodly.
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL to be testified IN DUE TIME.
1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you IN DUE TIME:
Would you say that Jesus birth was good tidings of great joy to Herod? No, but it shall be.
Was it good news of great joy to the Pharisees, Saducees, and chief priests etc? No, but it shall be.
Was it good news to the master of “a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination … which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:” (He was so happy he had Paul beaten with many stripes.) No, it wasn’t good news of great joy for him… but it SHALL be!
Was it good news to all the new mothers in Bethlehem whose children were slaughtered as a result of Jesus birth? No, but it shall be. It shall be to all people.
If the good news is not tidings of great joy to all people in due time, then the word of the angel is a false prophecy. Do you say the word of the angel is a false prophecy? Or perhaps a mistranslation? An exaggeration? Perhaps just another meaningless platitude? What?
Jack: I have not forgotten you :-) The entire family had the flu a week ago . . . plus 4-5 days of nonstop work (including 2 consecutive all-nighters and all-dayers) . . . been quite a week and a half.
"Will you concede that Aion does not always mean eternal?
Will you concede that Aionios is the adjective form of Aion?"
1) Yes . . . it has a number of meanings, which rarely mean eternal.
2) Aionois is the adjective form of Aion . . . just as "eternal" is the adjective form of the Latin "aevum", which means "age". The fact that "Eternal" comes from "Age" does NOT mean "age bounded" . . . but the opposite, "Ageless". "Pity" means to have compasion on . . . "Pitiful" is the adjective form, which means something completely different.
Again, explain how aionois can mean "age bounded" in the verse quoted by both of us, where is is clearly contrasted to the idea of "age":
"Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath OU ES AION (NOT IN THIS AGE) forgiveness, but is in danger of AIONIOS damnation"
My point was that I was happy that you allowed that it COULD mean eternal. That is worth a lot to me. I believe the Scriptures stand on their own and can tell us the intended meaning of "aionois" from the context.
"We also know that punishment can be related to this time, and we assume if the popular doctrine is correct that punishment will continue forever, but do we have any scripture that testifies of eternal punishment?"
I hate to use the term "punishment" . . . I agree with you that "punishment" in time has the idea of correction. In eternity, however, it has the idea of destruction. That is what "perish" means:
apollumi - perish, destroy, lose, be lost, lost . . . to destroy . . . to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
Here's a verse to ponder:
2 Thess 1:8-9 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting[aionois] destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"
The context is clearly the next age, that of eternity . . . destruction away from His presence.
You will also note, BTW, the complete lack of "love" . . . because they persecuted us, God will take flaming "aionois" judgment on them . . . which is just and righteous. Jack: If I wrote a paraphrase of that section out for you, you would accuse me of ungodly hatred and vengeance.
On the Marines . . . "good grief" . . . :-)
Stop quibbling with details. There are MANY examples of benefits extended on a legal basis to some subset of the whole, but whose effect only comes on those who avail themselves of it. A class action lawsuit . . . if they sue and win on behalf of purchasers of defective roofing materials, that court has the status of "Savior" for you and your roofing jobs that are damaged, delivering you from damage to your reputation and pocketbook.
But if you fail to join the lawsuit, the win will do you no good. If you do join, then the court can effect the full "special" measure of deliverance to you.
As to your "All" verses: What am I missing? The invitation to the wedding went out to "All" . . . the king made himself the party host for "All", literally. But ONLY those that came got to actually party. Good tidings to all . . . He made it clear it was to and for all. What part of that negates the fact that an act of the will, a choice must be executed to accept such a grand invitation?
Your reasoning only makes sense if you believe that God forces people to choose His way, which Scripture stands against in every way imaginable. [And which, incidentally, is the way I meant God "forcing His will on someone", which you responded to earlier . . . NOT that He can't physically make a man bow, by literally bending his knees for him, but rather make him WANT to bow and, further, make him WANT to love Him. Completely different.]
Alfred,
I'm sorry to hear your entire family had to endure the flu. I'm glad you're able to get back, I figured you had gotten pre occupied with something. Two all nighters too! Ouch. I guess that beats unemployment though. I'll be getting back to you soon.
Jack
Thanks, Jack
BTW . . . is there a way I could start topics at the top of your forum? I understand if not, depending on how you want to mange this. I would love to start threads on specific, key issues. Or even guest blog from a "contra" position. Again, I understand if not.
I can obviously start my own blog :-) If the interest is to explore the topic, pro and con, keeping it here is good . . . if primarily to promote, allowing as you do "contra" responses, that is perfectly fine too.
Alfred,
You said:
My point was that I was happy that you allowed that it COULD mean eternal. That is worth a lot to me. I believe the Scriptures stand on their own and can tell us the intended meaning of "aionois" from the context.
Dear Alfred, this indicates that you did not read or did not understand what I said in my recent comment. In a nutshell, you can NOT determine the meaning of aionios from the context if it could mean either age pertaining, or eternal. Both of these meanings can fit the context, and both come up with a totally different meaning. This word is the key to understanding the context. Apart from a pre conceived idea, there is no way to tell which definition should apply in verses regarding judgment, God, life, etc. You must use circular reasoning to conclude that life eternal (aionios) means endless life or that aionios punishment means endless punishment.
I merely allowed the idea of it meaning eternal to illustrate that if you do allow that meaning, the word becomes useless in defining anything. Deal with that. Respond in a way that shows you recognize the dilema you are facing here.
I just did an exhaustive search of all the uses of aionios in the NT, which I have before me. Without exception it means "eternal". It's root Aion can mean "age" or even "world" . . . but not aionios.
And the context IS clear. The meanings that you are attempting to force on the word make no sense. The most obvious point is that, if it realy was meant to say "age bounded", its usage would be superfulous, unnecessary. Why attach "aionios" to "zoe" at all in that case? What point would be being made?
Here's a great verse, that uses the unambiguous word "not" with regard to the opposite of "eternal life":
John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
"Not see life" is the opposite of "eternal life". That is coupled with "perish" in verse 16, which means "to destroy", as in the sense of "utterly".
How about this? Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting[aionios] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal[aionios]." How ever long the righteous have life, that is how long the punishment of the wicked is. This is absolutely clear, Jack.
Alfred! Shame on you! You have been arguing this all this time and you just now got around to checking the usage of aionios? You shouldn’t be bragging about an exhaustive search, you should be embarrassed that you haven’t done this search a long time ago. Shame, shame shame.
Secondly, you have expressed the warn out argument for the third time that the use of aionios is superfluous, even though I have clearly shown reason for the use two times, and if I do so again I will have answered the same argument three times. Yet, you have never addressed my demonstration of the significance of using aionios.
Third, you pronounce the validity of aionios being translated “world”, ignoring the clear warning from Scripture.
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
I refer you to the reference you no doubt used for your “exhaustive” study. Strongs concordance:
Aion -
from the same as 104; PROPERLY, AN AGE; BY EXTENSION perpetuity (also past); BY IMPLICATION, the world; SPECIALLY (Jewish) A Messianic PERIOD (present or future):
When a dictionary says, “by extension” it means “something added to” when it says “by implication” it means we are really stretching the meaning here. It literally means the word does not mean this but it could be taken this way in our opinion. Strongs is confessing here that the word doesn’t carry the meaning of perpetuity except it be added to, and world is not what the word means either. The adjective aionios is aion plus the suffix, “ios” which means pertaining to, unlike the “pitiful” example you gave of the adjective for pity. (Pun intended.) By the way, at least pitiful carries the meaning of something that deserves pity, whereas your definition of aionios is the complete antithesis to age.
Kosmos is the word for world. Aion has no such meaning whatsoever.
But I have already very patiently and explicitly explained these things to you in these comments and other times. I suggest you read back and find my explanations and address them if we are to continue any further.
When you have actually addressed the valid points that have been made, then it might be appropriate to allow you to begin a new topic as a guest contra blogger. No smoke screens just valid reasoning.
Given the kind of schedule you know I have been dealing with, you should commend me, not chide me :-) You have complained that people are not engaging with you, taking you seriously . . . hey, I am giving you that.
Frankly, you have sent a mind-boggling amount of information, and honestly I can't recall what specifically you are talking about. My brain shuts down after the 3rd paragraph or so, especially if I don't accept the first points which lead to the later ones.
So . . please humor me and at least cut and paste, or refer me back to a thread.
Once again, Jesus could meet the cleverest of arguments with a few short statements that went to the crux of the matter and exposed their hearts. Surely you can do that same? Perhaps start with the two verses I presented and refute what appears to me to be an open and shut case.
One of the aspects of false cults and doctrines is that one needs boatloads of reasoning to move a person around to a new point of view. God's Word is simple - Essential aspects such as this, never require endless arguments to demonstrate to a heart that loves Jesus.
As to adjectives and nouns . . . "pitiful" IS an adjective that does NOT mean "Full of Pity". It means something completely different, invoking the idea of disgust, not pity. If you say, "Alfred is pitiful", not one persons would EVER believe me to be "a man of pity". It has NOTHING to do with that meaning.
Here is the etymology - again - of our English word "Eternal":
"mid-14c. (in variant form eterne), from O.Fr. eternal, from L.L. aeternalis, from L. aeternus contraction of aeviternus "of great age," from aevum "age" (see eon)."
Since they point to our English word "Eon", let's look at that:
"1640s, from L. aeon, from Gk. aion "age, vital force, lifetime," from PIE base *aiw- "vital force, life, long life, eternity" (cf. Skt. ayu "life," Avestan ayu "age," L. aevum "space of time, eternity," Goth. aiws "age, eternity," O.N. ævi "lifetime," Ger. ewig "everlasting," O.E. a "ever, always")."
They clearly point to the Greek aion as meaning "eternity", and that meaning becoming the basis of the Germin "Ewig" (translation of "eternal" in German Bibles) and our English "Ever". The "Eternal" aspect of Eon is expressed in the words we use in English today, NEVER "age bounded". In other words, if a German says "Ewig" and an American says "Eternal", there is NEVER an intent to mean "age bounded". If age is in view, it means the opposite, "of such a long age as to be undefined or inconceivable".
This is the "Online Etymology Dictionary", hardly a place for religious influence. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eon As a rule the words for "Eternal" and "Eternity" in all of the languages considered ALL start with a root word meaning "age".
So . . . I have dealt with it :-) All of this without going to the examples in contemporary Greek literature which give the same force to aionios.
Now guide me to the arguments that you believe would negate this. Humor me - some of your "data dumps" have been, for me, hard to track with with the limited time I have. Please avoid huge cut and pastes . . . give me the best verses, the best arguments and let me respond.
Alfred you said:
John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
"Not see life" is the opposite of "eternal life". That is coupled with "perish" in verse 16, which means "to destroy", as in the sense of "utterly".
Alfred suppose that the verse above means as you say, (if I understand you correctly),
He that believeth on the Son hath ETERNAL life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see {eternal} life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Now try this:
He that believeth on the Son has currently, in this time that He is living, LIFE: and he that believes not the Son, shall not be seeing this life, but the wrath of God is currently abiding on him.
It is immediately obvious that we have two totally different potential concepts being presented here. One is speaking of pie in the sky by and by, while the other is speaking of here and now.
Let’s try wording it without the word aionios at all to see just how superfluous “aionios” really is. He that believeth on the Son hath life: he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. (aionios is left out of the verse totally, what does the verse seem to say to you now?)
You most likely would guess that he is talking about eternal life since we look around and observe that many who don’t believe in Jesus are yet alive, therefore for the statement to be true it would default to eternal life. True?
Now is it in harmony with the definition Scripture gives us of life eternal?
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal [aionios], that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
This speaks of that life that only comes from an abiding personal relationship and fellowship with Jesus here and now the life that is taken away when we walk in sin, the life that includes “the peace which passes understanding”.
I see an irony: You said that using aionios with life [zoe] is superfluous. In the illustration we have above, leaving aionios out altogether, has the most obvious meaning of life after death… So to leave out the word aionios, we would think the verse should be interpreted the way you say. Therefore, adding the word eternal would be superfluous, but adding the word aionios clarifys the true meaning.
Take a minute and digest the last statement. It is important. If your argument for a superfluous use of the word is valid, namely, that it can’t mean pertaining to time because that would be unnecessary to guide the reader to any further light on the matter, then the use of eternal would be even more so, since without aionios, eternal becomes the default understanding.
Notice the definition once again! THIS IS LIFE AIONIOS: it does not say…this is life aionios that we may go to heaven when we die. No, it is very clear… this IS life aionios, knowing God and knowing Jesus. If knowing Jesus was ETERNAL life as opposed to aionios life, then anyone who knows him has already received it. If that is the case, then you cannot possibly lose it once you have it because it is unending, everlasting, eternal.
If this is true then you must explain why we have so many warnings to believers such as these:
♦ Endure to the end and you will be saved (Mt. 10:22).
♦ Forgive from the heart and thus not be delivered to the torturers
(Mt. 18:34).
♦ Be faithful and thus not be cut in two and receive your portion with
the unbelievers (Lu. 12 :43-46).
♦ Abide in Him and thus not be cast out as a branch, thrown into the
fire, and burned (Jn. 15 :6).
♦ Put to death the deeds of the body for if you live according to the
flesh you will die (Ro. 8:12).
♦ Continue in His goodness or otherwise you will be cut off (Ro. 11:20-
22).
As I am looking back over your post, let me respond to a few other things specifically:
o My "exhaustive" list of every place was not from Strongs, but rather from the Greek word itself. I wanted to make sure that there was no instance that ainios clearly did NOT mean "Eternal". There are two uses that mean "forever past", tranlated "foundation of the world", etc., but the meaning stays. There MUST be a verse where it clearly can only mean "age bounded" if you are right.
o Please repeat the two ways in which you showed that "aionios" as "age bounded" added meaning to a verse.
o I did NOT allow aionios to be "world" other than the idea of "from before the world began". "Aion" in the sense of "this age" can mean "this world". Do you disagree? I obviously hit a nerve (never meaning "world") that I, in all honesty, do not understand.
o Here is a primary way in which you abuse etymology. "By extension" to an etymologist does NOT mean by addition. It means the primary meaning of the word is extended into an associated meaning. If you are right, "Pity" could never be extended to "Pitiful". Words often extend a primary meaning into something completely different. Even the black community says "Bad" when they mean "Good" . . . extending the idea of "something awful" into "something that really captures my awe". I already mentioned how the Greek word for "Sabbaths" was extended to mean "week" . . . NOBODY (except Harold Camping) has ANY confusion about "on the first of the Sabbaths" meaning anything other than "on the first day of the week".
Looks like we are cross posting :-) I have not read your last post prior to my last post. Will do so and respond.
Alfred, you made a point about John 3:16 that I would like to address.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
You said that perish means: "to destroy", as in the sense of "utterly" and inferred that since it is coupled with everlasting life, that it gives the proof of context that aionios here must mean eternal.
Remember the best way to determine the true meaning of a word is it’s usage, not Strong’s definitions, as good as they might be.
The word perish is a translation of the word “apollumi”. If the word has such force as to mean eternal destruction, then why does Jesus use it in Mt. 10:6 ? That he is sent to the “apollumi” sheep of Israel? If it indeed means utterly destroyed, then this provides evidence that Jesus can still save them even when they are utterly destroyed. If it simply means lost, then how does it confirm that aionios in John 3:16 isn’t the primary meaning of pertaining to time life?
Lu 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose [apollumi] one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost [apollumi], until he find it?
Lu 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.[apollumi]
Lu 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose [apollumi] it; and whosoever shall lose[apollumi] his life shall preserve it.
Go ahead and search out all the uses of apollumi, and you will find that it usually has to do with physical death, not eternal death.
Conclusion:
The context of John 3:16 does not demand aionios to mean eternal, even though that is your preconceived idea, it is not demanded in the context, and “age pertaining” does fit the context rather well.
Those who are abiding in belief, are experiencing aionios life, those who are in unbelief do not know God.
Can you find a verse which states: This is life aionios, that we get to go to heaven when we die, or something of that nature?
Scripture clearly defines life aionios as knowing God and Jesus whom He has sent. Something we can do in this age thanks to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
Yes, I see the cross posting. I'm off to a wedding reception so most likely won't get back to you for a bit. See ya later.
With regard to your comments on John 3:36:
The eternal life that God gives IS a present possession . . . in fact, we are told that we are, even now, in heaven:
Eph. 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
"Heavenly Places" reads "heaven" in the Greek.
The fact that it is a present possession and comes from knowing God does not alter the fact that it is eternal. Which is why He called it "aionios" life instead of "God" life or "Spiritual" life or any number of other tags that would define it closer to what you are trying to make it.
The fact that eternal life is present does not negate that it is also very specifically a future inheritance, your "pie in the sky" if you will. Luke 18:30 "Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting." Blessings in this life, eternal life in the next. This answers your question, “Can you find a verse which states: This is life aionios, that we get to go to heaven when we die, or something of that nature?”
The time for believing is this life - physical death seals a man's rejection of Christ and God's abiding wrath. The one who trusts Christ has begun eternal life, which will never end. The person who rejects Christ will not see life . . . ever.
Matt. 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting [aionios] punishment; but the righteous into life eternal [aionios]". NOTHING changes in eternity. The saved one has already begun eternity . . . the unbeliever is sealed to that eternal fate upon physical death.
2 Cor. 4:17 "The things which are seen are temporal [proskairos, "for a while", "for a time"]; but the things which are not seen are eternal[aionios]" This so clearly contrasts the time aspect of being temporal with that of being non-temporal, eternal.
2Cor. 5:1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens." Again, the temporal nature of life's "tabernacle" is contrasted with the eternal nature of our dwelling there. More “pie in the sky”
And, to address your points at the end about losing your salvation, there are, as we know different aspects of salvation:
Spirit – “Saved From the Penalty of Sin” - we are permanently sealed by the Spirit of God when we trust Christ. He can never say, “I never knew you” to someone that He has come to know. It is Aionios life, permanent, sure . . . we are seated in heaven already in our spirits. We have already entered into literal eternal life.
Soul – “Saved From the Power of Sin” - Our mind/will/emotions are being saved, and that salvation is in play until the end. Just like the Israelites in the promised land . . . it was theirs, but they had to “labor to enter that rest”. They had to possess it . . . and some areas remained unpossessed until the end. Some are saved “so as by fire”, as we read, with not much to show.
Body – “Saved From the Presence of Sin” - Will be saved on that future day. Hasn’t happened yet, hasn’t even started yet.
With regard to apollumi:
Matt 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy[apollumi] both soul and body in hell."
That means something awful, Jack . . . Something that is to make us very afraid. It is far worse than physical death. The fact that it is contrasted with eternal life makes that all the more clear.
More clearly, we understand that the fire of apollumi is NEVER quenched (Mark 9) and their worm NEVER dies . . . you still have not explained to me how this can be so if everyone eventually is saved.
For reference to what I’m addressing look at your post dated: February 9, 2010 11:22 PM
I guess we have different definitions for eternal. I presume eternal means having no beginning and no end, but I am willing, for the sake of argument to allow it to mean from some point continuing forward without end or everlasting. Do you have some other definition that I’m not aware of?
If anyone now possesses eternal life, why are we warned against having our names blotted out of the book of life?.
Exactly which aspect of salvation do we risk losing? Spirit? Soul? Or Body?
Which aspect of this eternal salvation do we lose if we don’t endure till the end?
Endure to the end and you will be saved (Mt. 10:22).
♦ Forgive from the heart and thus not be delivered to the torturers
(Mt. 18:34).
♦ Be faithful and thus not be cut in two and receive your portion with
the unbelievers (Lu. 12 :43-46).
♦ Abide in Him and thus not be cast out as a branch, thrown into the
fire, and burned (Jn. 15 :6).
♦ Continue in His goodness or otherwise you will be cut off (Ro. 11:20-
22).
♦ Discipline your body lest when you have preached to others, you are
disqualified (1Co. 9:27).
♦ Do not think you stand lest you fall (1Co. 10 :12, see 1-12).
♦ Hold fast the word by which you are saved unless you believed in
vain (1Co. 15:1, 2).
♦ Provide for your family, or you have denied the faith and are worse
than an unbeliever (1Ti. 5:8).
♦ Guard yourself and avoid idle talk like some that have strayed concerning
the faith (1Ti. 6:21).
♦ Die with Him if you want to live with Him (2Ti. 2:11).
♦ Do not deny Him, or He will deny you (2Ti. 2:12).
♦ Give earnest heed to the things you have heard lest you drift away
(He. 2:1).
♦ Beware, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in departing
from the living God (He. 3:12).
♦ Be diligent to enter that rest lest you fall according to the same example of disobedience (He. 4:11).
♦ Do not bear thorns and briars, or you will be rejected and end up being burned (He. 6:8).
♦ Show diligence until the end that through faith and patience you
inherit the promises (He. 6:11, 12).
♦ Do not trample the Son of God underfoot.…Do not count the blood
of the covenant by which you were sanctified a common thing.…Do
not insult the Spirit of grace, for these punishments merit worse
than those of Moses (He. 10:28-29).
♦ Endure so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise (He. 10:36).
♦ [Be merciful] for judgment is without mercy to the one who has
shown no mercy (Ja. 2:13).
♦ Do not grumble…lest you be condemned…the Judge is standing at
the door! (Ja. 5:9).
♦ Beware lest you fall from your own steadfastness (2Pe. 3:17).
♦ Overcome and you will eat from the tree of life (Re. 2:7).
♦ Overcome and you shall not be hurt by the second death (Re. 2:11).
To what purpose are all these warnings if you now possess eternal salvation? Is God’s word just bluffing?
You agree that eternal life is here and now. How is it that it is eternal if you can lose it?
You said that the day of one’s death seals his eternal fate if he dies as an unbeliever. Where is that in Scripture?
If you have it now, but can lose it... it isn’t eternal. Which is it?
Please explain this.
I don't know if you get special privileges :-), but I am limited do a fairly small chunk per reply. I am going to respond basically point for point . . . so . . . expect a lot of posts.
You said "I guess we have different definitions for eternal. I presume eternal means having no beginning and no end, but I am willing, for the sake of argument to allow it to mean from some point continuing forward without end or everlasting. Do you have some other definition that I’m not aware of?"
Eternal – “aionios” – life is NOT endless earthly life. Infinity is NOT endless time . . . it is separate, above time. Even from a mathematical perspective, you can’t get to infinity from finity . . . Eternal life is God’s life, without beginning and without end. We receive it as a gift, a new birth, a new spirit plugged into God’s Spirit.
On to your verses . . .
"If anyone now possesses eternal life, why are we warned against having our names blotted out of the book of life?"
Basically those that are lost are erased . . . they had an entry at birth, full of hope and promise, but they were “stumbled” and “lost”. If I read Matthew 18 correctly I would believe the little ones somehow “believe in Him” in innocence, and so are “in”, up until the time they are “Stumbled” . . . turn aside. I don’t know how else to read it (in this I part company with many I fellowship with, where “original sin” would trump this) . . . the sheep spoken of there WERE His, then BECAME lost, then were FOUND. Sounds like “in” in some sense, then “out”, then “in”. We teach that children are “in”, but if people can only be in heaven through faith in Christ, that is hard to explain if you believe in complete “original sin” the way it has been taught me . . . other than by what I stated.
BUT . . . this may also be looking at something more practical. Exodus 32:32 “Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” The ones that sinned were forced to wander the desert and never enter the land, i.e. have their names in play in the great story that later unfolded . . . I am certain they did not all go to hell . . . earthly “life”, even the idea of a “Book of God’s Adventure” in view there, one that will be read and enjoyed for all eternity. A believer that is yanked without fruit gets erased from the “Book of Heroes”
"Which aspect of this eternal salvation do we lose if we don’t endure till the end?"
The Soul – coming out into eternity with a shrivled mind, a small will, small emotions with which to enjoy heaven. A man with color blindness still enjoys the grand canyon . . . the man with full vision knows what he is missing and will never know. 1 Cor 3:15 “If any man's work (in this life) shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
”Endure to the end and you will be saved (Mt. 10:22)."
Again, the soul. Many believe that those that believe WILL endure to the end . . . “That which is born of God sinneth not” (somewhere in 1 John), i.e. the spiritual life – living in the spirit – CANNOT fall away, even if our mind, will, and emotions are brought under Satan’s dominion. That is true . . . but, again, the soul is BEING saved . . . and can be “lost”. 1 Peter 1:9 “Receiving [present, CONTINUOUS tense in Greek] the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.” 1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou SHALT both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” I will email a copy of a preach I gave many years ago . . . about this whole topic . . . see what you think . . .
"♦ Forgive from the heart and thus not be delivered to the torturers (Mt. 18:34)."
That is in this life, the practical consequences of sin. We already discussed that . . . example is Israel having to pay with 3 years of famine, or 3 months of being chased by enemies, or 3 days of pestilence to pay the practical consequences of sin . . . or of the famine which was not removed until judgment was executed on the house of Soul to pay for his bloody persecution of the Gibeonites.
"♦ Be faithful and thus not be cut in two and receive your portion with the unbelievers (Lu. 12 :43-46)."
That is a reference to the unbelieving Pharisees and Sadducees, whom he elsewhere condemns for having been given the control, the charge of the flock of Israel but living in selfishness and unbelief. Not one of His own.
"♦ Abide in Him and thus not be cast out as a branch, thrown into the fire, and burned (Jn. 15 :6)."
That one is easy . . . the entire section has to do with fruit bearing . . . “Men gather them” . . . same idea as tasteless salt being trampled underfoot of men. Again, “Saved so as by fire”
"♦ Continue in His goodness or otherwise you will be cut off (Ro. 11:20-22)."
As Israel was sidelined in the purposes of God (NEVER abandoned) because of unbelief, so individual believers or even churches will be sidelined, even removed, if they revert to a life that denies the Lord.
"♦ Discipline your body lest when you have preached to others, you are disqualified (1Co. 9:27)."
That is real clear . . . our ministry, our fruit bearing . . . how many believers have given their lives to the service of the Lord only to have it all “disqualified” because of one night with a woman . . .
"♦ Do not think you stand lest you fall (1Co. 10 :12, see 1-12)."
The practical loss of one’s soul – “Saved so as by fire” is the greatest loss that a man entering heaven man endure. Again, to enter life there as a shriveled remnant of what one could have been is very sad . . . especially considering that it is FOR EVER. If a man may berate himself for not having disciplined himself in the early part of life to obtain some education that later would have proven a great blessing for the remainder of life, how much more sorrow would one have to enter into “FOREVER” with a fraction of what one could have had and been.
"♦ Hold fast the word by which you are saved unless you believed in vain (1Co. 15:1, 2)."
Faith is with a view to a promise . . . initially a promise of “eternal life” which we seek, then OBTAIN (never to be lost) . . . then with regard to other things the Lord gives us a vision for, and then motivates us to obtain. To believe, to start, then fall away from a purpose God gave is to “believe in vain”.
"♦ Provide for your family, or you have denied the faith and are worse than an unbeliever (1Ti. 5:8)."
“Worse” has to do with shame . . . as He said elsewhere, the children of this life are sometime wiser than the children of light (Luke 16).
"♦ Guard yourself and avoid idle talk like some that have strayed concerning the faith (1Ti. 6:21)."
Believers can lose their way . . . big time.
"♦ Die with Him if you want to live with Him (2Ti. 2:11)."
Live and reign . . . not every believer will be counted of equal honor in that Kingdom . . . some over 20 cities, some over 10 . . . some not at all.
"♦ Do not deny Him, or He will deny you (2Ti. 2:12)."
That is easy . . . the confession is before the Father “and His holy angels” . . . Angels, we read elsewhere, are there to protect and serve . . . if we confess Him before men, He will see to it that His father – and the powerful angels – know about us when we are in trouble. And . . . Peter denied Christ before men . . . clearly not some kind of “unpardonable sin”.
"♦ Give earnest heed to the things you have heard lest you drift away (He. 2:1)."
Man, Jack . . . I want to scream . . .
"♦ Beware, lest there be in you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (He. 3:12)."
Again, the salvation of the soul . . . I take up lots of Hebrews in my preach . . . we must “possess” what God has given, or we will lose it . . . We can live like He isn’t even there . . . lots of evil still left in that soul that needs to be saved . . .
"♦ Be diligent to enter that rest lest you fall according to the same example of disobedience (He. 4:11)."
Again, as mentioned . . .
"♦ Do not bear thorns and briars, or you will be rejected and end up being burned (He. 6:8)."
Fruit bearing . . . a burned field produces none . . . time to come home, “saved as by fire”. 1 John 5:16 “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.”
"♦ Show diligence until the end that through faith and patience you inherit the promises (He. 6:11, 12)."
Again, all the same . . . there is far more “in play” that believers realize. The whole book of Hebrews is focused on keeping us focused on the massive blessings to be gained, and terrible losses to be avoided
"♦ Do not trample the Son of God underfoot.…Do not count the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified a common thing.…Do not insult the Spirit of grace, for these punishments merit worse than those of Moses (He. 10:28-29)."
Right . . . losing a spiritual “eye”, if you will – becoming spiritually “color blind”, in my analogy , is a far greater loss than any physical punishment, up to and including “dying without mercy”. 1 Cor 3 says we are building a house . . . gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble . . . the “saved as by fire” means no house is left . . . no house for all eternity . . . still saved . . . but with, really, nothing.
"♦ Endure so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise (He. 10:36)."
Again, same
"♦ [Be merciful] for judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy (Ja. 2:13)."
Practical . . . when we need help, do we get it . . . 2 Timothy 1:18 “The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in THAT DAY (the day of trouble): and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.”
"♦ Do not grumble…lest you be condemned…the Judge is standing at the door! (Ja. 5:9)."
Oh, yes . . . the Lord weighs our words and actions . . . and honors us as we honor Him.
"♦ Beware lest you fall from your own steadfastness (2Pe. 3:17). "
Lots to lose
"♦ Overcome and you will eat from the tree of life (Re. 2:7)."
Eternal life, as you have often pointed out, is to know Him . . . The more I know Him, the more life I get . . . the more of that fruit I may eat . . . Paul said, “That I may know Him” . . . that is our purpose in life, as long as change may occur, to gain as much “life” as we can . . . more access to that tree . . .
"♦ Overcome and you shall not be hurt by the second death (Re. 2:11)."
1 Cor 3:11-13 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.”
The second death is that fire . . . a saved person will come through with all of the gold, silver, and precious stones built on that one foundation, Jesus Christ . . . the unbeliever will himself be cast into the fire, from which he will never escape.
"You said that the day of one’s death seals his eternal fate if he dies as an unbeliever. Where is that in Scripture?"
Daniel 12:2 “ And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Revelation 22:11 “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”
The rich man . . . in hell . . . great chasm fixed . . He could not change his fate, but his brothers still could . . . “CANNOT” (Greek “me”) is the word used to describe the possibility of transferring his position to heaven. It is ALL consistent, Jack.
"If you have it now, but can lose it... it isn’t eternal. Which is it?"
It is because part is eternal, and part is being “redeemed” to be eternal . . . my soul, “my darling”, as Jesus called it (Psalm 22) . . . to lose even part of it is a horrible tragedy.
This belongs toward the top, but since an unfortunate editing error really zapped the whole point, I was forced to delete . . . and repost:
"Exactly which aspect of salvation do we risk losing? Spirit? Soul? Or Body?"
We are clearly three parts - 1 Thess 5:23 “I pray God your whole spirit AND (Greek "kai") soul AND body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Yet we read - 1 Cor 6:20 “For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your BODY, and in your SPIRIT, which are God's.” The soul is not listed. We cannot lose the salvation of our spirit and our body because those already belong to God. The salvation of our soul is the process of our mind, will and emotions coming under the full control of God’s spirit IN THIS LIFE . . . that is the part that is in play, the part we can gain or lose. THAT is why God is still the Savior of those that believe . . . the work is not done.
Jack said...
Alfred, you say:
Eternal – “aionios” – life is NOT endless earthly life. Infinity is NOT endless time . . . it is separate, above time. Even from a mathematical perspective, you can’t get to infinity from finity . . . Eternal life is God’s life, without beginning and without end. We receive it as a gift, a new birth, a new spirit plugged into God’s Spirit.
Okay Alfred, If eternal life is God's life then what is eternal damnation? Is it a gift from God too?
Why do you need to keep changing the meaning?
This whole discussion was based on your premise that Hell never ends. This premise is based largely on the interpretation of the words aion and aionios.
If they mean what you described, how do yo get endless from them?
February 15, 2010 12:43 PM
Eternity is not "time that never ends" . . . it is a different animal, things that never change, life - or a dieing - that never end. "I AM" is the Lord . . . in eternity all things are.
"Eternal Life" is the life of eternity . . . "Eternal damnation" or "Eternal Fire" is again of that boundless age.
A being connected to the Lord, sharing His life, will live as He lives . . . a Being created to share His life, but separated from Him, will die forever. An endlessly consuing worm, an endlessly burning fire. If every day you are half as alive as you were the day before, you would never be consumed . . . always dieing.
Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
Hell never changes because it is in that age, eternity. Every picture given of it has words like "never" associated with it besides "aionios". If Hell had an end, the Lord would have said so . . . every oportunity there is so say so ends with a period after the "nevers" and the horrors are described.
What is your infatuation with dead bodies? Peger - carcasses. The worms are alive but the bodies are dead. So how does this prove anything about the eternality of the situation? Haven't you read about the valley of dry bones. Besides, have you ever seen a dead body? Was it suffering? Was it in torment? No, just a dead carcass. Your body will one day become a carcass too. So will mine. Big deal.
Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
It IS a big deal if you are still in it (the rotting carcass), which is exactly what Jesus is saying.
Alfred: (in italics)
Mark 9:43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
It IS a big deal if you are still in it (the rotting carcass), which is exactly what Jesus is saying.
It is better for thee to enter into "life"... are you saying this is eternal life? It doesn't even have "aionios" in front of it.
You think that people will enter eternal life maimed? This is referring to that life in Christ that we experience in this aion, otherwise we could not enter maimed. The warning is that we need not fear them who can only kill the body, but Him who is able to put both body and soul under His wrath which cannot be escaped. Doesn't mean it never ends! Just can't be ended pre maturely (quenched) A fire that burns out is not quenched. ( Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [hades or grave].)I've known a number of people whose souls were destroyed long before they were laid in the grave. It is tragic. It would have been far better for them to live maimed and crippled with the life of Christ in them.
Heb 12:29 For our God is a
consuming fire.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Remember the destruction was to the body and soul, (mind, will, and emotions), not the spirit.
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
I'm praying God will open your eyes Alfred. You will be so blessed. Though the blessing will be accompanied with persecution. Interestingly enough, Jesus' persecution always came from the religious which is exactly where yours would come from as well.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
The opposition of the world, the devil is "persecution". The world and the devil hate Jesus and Christians . . . that is an honor.
The opposition of godly men against heresy is not "persecution". Toward those Paul said to "turn away" (2 Tim 3) . . . and elsewhere "put away". The difference is WHERE the opposition comes from.
The world loves your perspectives . . . not the righteousness part, but the part that some of your fellow believers are opposing you on, the notion that a good God will forgive all in the end "just because". So you won't get any persecution from them. "Universalists" are heroes in the eyes of the world, "true Christians".
Luke 6:26 "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets." "ALL MEN" . . . except for the faithful.
Mark 9:47 "It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire"
"Enter into life" is the same as "Enter into the Kingdom of God" and is contrasted with hell fire. With undieing worms and unquenchable fire. That is NOT this life, Jack :-)
You would destroy the soul in the grave? That is a strange doctrine . . .
Entering into heaven without certain body parts would be way better than having them all in hell. Yes, I believe that people enter into eternal life missing pieces of themselves . . . we have had this discussion before.
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
The foundation is Jesus, so the person is saved . . . they build a house for eternity out of gold, silver, gems, wood, hay, stubble. This is the house they are going to spend eternity in. If the house is partly burned up - or even all burned up - they are still in heaven, just "missing some parts". "He shall SUFFER LOSS" That is EXACTLY what it says :-)
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! (except for the faithful.)
Alfred, what your saying is that you and everyone who believes like you is faithful, and I and all who believe like me are not. I can only agree that I am not. I don't deserve to name the name of Jesus.
Pr 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Remember the Pharisees were very sure that Jesus couldn't be the Messiah because they knew He was from Nazareth. They based their belief on their understanding of Scripture, but the man who was blind from birth, not only gained his physical eyesight but also was given spiritual sight to see Jesus for who he was. Even the woman at the well and the men of Samaria professed Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. These unlearned men had the mystery revealed while the "faithful" Jews persecuted the poor blind man. Paul didn't think he was persecuting the church, but thought he was being zealous for God. Afterward he was ashamed, and considered his own actions worthy of making him chief of sinners.
I will give you this: The verse I quoted regarding works being burned is placing the foundation on Christ, and in context you can argue that this fire is only for christians. Good one!
quote from Alfred Feb. 28th 9:19PM
"Enter into life" is the same as "Enter into the Kingdom of God" and is contrasted with hell fire. With undieing worms and unquenchable fire. That is NOT this life, Jack :-)
As you should know by now, the Scriptural definition of aionios life, is knowing God and Jesus.
The Scriptural definition of The Kingdom of God, is
Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
So you can see this is relevant to this life. Furthermore:
Worms that don't die are metaphorical. It doesn't say the carcasses don't die, and most of the biblical fires that are not quenched have all stopped burning a long time ago. Like Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. This was spoken to Israel in Jeremiah's day. No fire continues there now.
A quench refers to a rapid cooling.
quenched - To put out (a fire, for example); extinguish.
Fires that burn themselves out are not quenched. God assures us he won't have wrath forever because even our spirits could not survive that!
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
"Alfred, what your saying is that you and everyone who believes like you is faithful, and I and all who believe like me are not."
Nope . . . but I did say:
Look out when your toughest opposition is from serious Christians, not the world that hates Jesus. Jesus said, "Beware", when that is the case . . . that is the symptom of a false prophet . . . and in that case the oposition is NOT persecution.
Oppose birth control or hold to a father's responsibility to train his own children and the world will hate you. Universalism: The world loves you.
Aionios life is knowing God and Jesus. It is also living forever, which is why it is called "eternal life" and not "God Life" or "Spiritual Life". You are out of balance, taking ONE verse that highlight something important to disregard a large number of verses that emphasize something else.
Ainios is everlasting consolation, God's everlasting power, God's eternal glory, eternal salvation, eternal redemption, eternal Spirit, eternal inheritance in heaven, everlasting covenant with God, the everlasting gospel. "Knowing God" is how we GET it, but is does not define it, no more than any of its other uses.
Like taking two verses by one author that say "God is Love" to trump a truckload of verses that say God is Light, God is Holy, God is Greatly Fearful. That is heresy: "Truth out of balance"
"Unquenchable" is the word to use to say, "it never goes out" which is consistent with the deliberate use of aionios in the parallel passage:
Matthew 18:8 " . . . having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
Alfred said:
Look out when your toughest opposition is from serious Christians, not the world that hates Jesus. Jesus said, "Beware", when that is the case . . . that is the symptom of a false prophet . . . and in that case the oposition is NOT persecution.
Mt 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mt 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
Mr 2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.
Mr 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?
Lu 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
Lu 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Lu 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
If Jesus really warned against a message that appeals to the world, then His message points to him being a false prophet.
What did the angel mean, behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people? Was the angel a false prophet?
That's who liked Jesus and His message. Look at who didn't. The religious establishment of His day.
Here is a warning Jesus gave.
Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Many Christian pastors, who have contributed much to the teaching of the reconciliation of all, were put out of their fellowships which were their livelihoods. They knew that if they did not hide the message under a bushel, they would lose their positions, but they accepted the persecution so as not to compromise the glorious truth.
Back to some of the questions you never answered.
How many in your church would remain in fellowship with you if you were to adopt the teaching in question?
How many in your immediate family would follow you if you began teaching this doctrine?
How many of your ATI friends would begin warning others of your heresy if you believed like I do?
Extended family? Other friends and aquaintances?
My point being that you have far more motivation to reject the things I'm putting forth, than I have of accepting them.
You have accused me of being dishonest and I don't take offense, however, I assure you that I have not even once in this dialogue, stated anything that I felt was not true in order to win an arguement. I have attempted to be completely transparent and honest in every single word.
Also I have attempted to let Scripture speak in order to substantiate every claim.
On the other hand, it seems to me that you make claims without substantiation and in attempt to make them valid, you simply repeat them over and over. Adding no substance to the discussion, like your insistance that Jesus can be the Saviour of all men, especially those who believe, without saving any except those who believe, or your claim in the last post saying Jesus warned us that when serious christians disagree and the world loves what we say, that is a sign of a false prophet. And that we must beware when all men except the believers speak well of us...
He didn't say that! You made that up.
No, in fact Jesus teaching on false prophets says nothing about being accepted by a certain predetermined group. In fact Jesus own teaching was rejected by his own disciples!
Joh 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?... 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Here is Jesus teaching on how to know who the false prophets are:
Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Lu 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets...
Lu 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. (Good Fruit)
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
For me, this last command means I have to always and forever be merciful to everyone, even my enemies. For you, it means you can stop being merciful eventually, just like your Father in Heaven will stop being merciful to His enemies.
"Knowing God" is how we GET it, but it does not define it, no more than any of its other uses.
So you just randomly make it mean whatever you want. It has no meaning to you except what you have already predetermined the verses are talking about where it is used. You once maintained, it has to mean eternal and only eternal. Now you seem to be saying it means eternal except when it doesn't? You never acknowleged that it doesn't always mean eternal before. Now are you acknowleging it can mean other things? Like in the case of "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire"? Where the aionios fire has ended? Kind of like the "shall not be quenched fire" in Jeremiah that is also no longer burning?
You said: "Unquenchable" is the word to use to say, "it never goes out" which is consistent with the deliberate use of aionios in the parallel passage:
Matthew 18:8 " . . . having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
Alfred, Alfred, Alfred... You poor man. You must be overtired. You just used "aionios" and "your own perceived definition of it" to prove a point? Surely you can understand the problem I might have with that! Are you just spinning your wheels?
Answer me this! Did Sodom and Gommorah suffer the vengeance of eternal (aionion) fire? If you say yes, where is that fire now? Why did it stop burning? Exactly what was eternal about the judgment? If you say no, then how do you know that the same basic phrase doesn't mean something other than eternal in Matthew 18:8?
Please give me some substance. NOT circular reasoning.
"Matthew 18:8 " . . . having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
Alfred, Alfred, Alfred... You poor man. You must be overtired. You just used "aionios" and "your own perceived definition of it" to prove a point? "
Parallel passages which have "unquenchable" and "aionios" to describe the fire of hell. I am showing you that whatever "unquenchable" is, the force of it's meaning is duplicated by "aionios". That makes sense if both mean "eternal" . . . that was the point, it it is NOT circular reasoning.
As to "Aionios", you are way overdue to explain Plato's use of the word which even secular sources believe to mean "eternal".
Luke 6:26 "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets."
There is a point the Savior is making here. The fact that godly believers WILL oppose heresy . . . and the "world" will embrace it. That carries a "Woe" with it. That ought to make all of us quiet and reflective, even if we are sure it doesn't apply to us.
"Back to some of the questions you never answered.
How many in your church would remain in fellowship with you if you were to adopt the teaching in question?"
None . . . I hope, because I am sure that this is heresy. Hopefully they would spank me and, if I didn't repent, put me out of the fellowship.
Titus 3:10-11 "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
Do you agree that is the correct response to heresy, ignoring for the moment whether this applies to this doctrine or not?
When a fellowship pats a false prophet on the back because they just like a person, they have committed a grievous offense against the Lord, one that He will judge them for severely.
How many in your church would remain?"
None . . . I hope, because I am sure that this is heresy. Hopefully they would spank me and, if I didn't repent, put me out of the fellowship.
So, you would expect that if you were to receive this doctrine, that NOT ONE PERSON in your fellowship would NOT reject you?
This is a fellowship in which you have been so entwined since you were born, that you could not even move your family to a location in which they did not have a gathering. So entwined in your life that you cannot make a decision without their counsel and approval.
Isn’t your entire family in the same fellowship?
If you were able to receive this doctrine which I hold, your world (kosmos) would be shaken to the very foundation! Yet you accuse me of having an ulterior motive for "finding" this teaching in Scripture? It is impossible for you to look objectively in the Word of God to find anything that conflicts with the leaders of the group you are bound to, on this level. Christ is not closed like your group is closed. I would that they would put you out for your benefit. You will never be free to find the truth and therefore you will never be free, as long as you remain entwined with them.
Titus 3:10-11 "A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject..."
I find it interesting that you choose this verse. It seems all closed religions have this as the apex of their doctrine.This gives them control. They threaten to remove anyone who doesn't think the way they decree. This is a hallmark of cults. Anytime anyone begins to think outside their little box, they are warned, and if they don't come into line, they are "ejected" and "quarantined".
I don't find Jesus dealing this way. Take Jesus for an example, we find that teaching the truth causes those who are rejecting the truth to just not want to be around, so they leave. Like the quote I gave you yesterday, where Jesus disciples left off following Him. Those who stay, even if they were like Judas, Jesus didn't reject. Knowing Judas completely, He didn't put him out of the group.
Love covers over a multitude of offenses. (1Pet 4:8) Closed fellowships only love themselves, so they have to protect themselves by rejecting everyone who isn't in line with themselves.
You are unable to leave, and as long as you are unable to leave, it will remain impossible for you to receive truth that conflicts with your fellowship on any level that they can’t tolerate.
You cannot even accept the simple truth that you have a higher motive for rejecting this doctrine than I have for accepting it. It is impossible for you.
CAN YOU ADMIT THAT YOUR MOTIVE FOR NOT SEEING THIS DOCTRINE IS GREATER THAN ANY MOTIVE I HAVE FOR ACCEPTING IT?
If you cannot see it and admit it then you are blind. You truly need to cry out to God for eye salve, for healing. Until you are free from the control of the group you are in, you will not be able to see any truth that would cause them to break fellowship with you. They are NOT laying down their lives for you, (love) but expect you to lay down yours for them.
Alfred, love will never reject you, nor cut you off. Until you are able to sever yourself from dependence on this group, discussion of any matter that would cause them to reject you is fruitless for you. Unfortunately, you are being forced to remain in service of a God who hates, and who can at any moment turn his hate against you, and through one slip up, condemn you to an unspeakable fate. You also are losing out on the joy of becoming better aquainted with the one who truly loves His enemies, who worketh no ill to them thereby fulfilling the law. These are tragic losses, and I am truly sorry that you are not able to see Him in this light. I am praying for your deliverance and healing.
Luke 6:26 "Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets." There is a point the Savior is making here. The fact that godly believers WILL oppose heresy . . . and the "world" will embrace it. That carries a "Woe" with it. That ought to make all of us quiet and reflective, even if we are sure it doesn't apply to us.
Look at the context! Here is the passage!
Lu 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh. Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil,(Isn't this what you say your church should do?) for the Son of man's sake. (The person that this happens to is blessed by God, not the ones doing it.) Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. (The prophets are the ones who get kicked out...not the false prophets.) But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (We are rich compared to the people who Jesus was talking to.) Woe unto you that are full! (Are you hungry or full?)for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now!(Do you laugh now?) for ye shall mourn and weep. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. (The false prophets have all men speaking well of them.)But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other… Give to every man… that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. (But you say that God only loves them who love Him, those who reject Him He hates.) And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. (But you say, God will only do good to them who do good to Him, the rest will be damned, in so doing you are calling God a sinner. That is blasphemy.)… But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (But you say His kindness is superficial and temporary, for towards any who die rejecting it, it will turn to the most abhorrent cruelty for ever.) Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. (Superficially merciful? Just for now, merciful?)(Merciful only to those who respond properly to His mercy and to the rest endless wrath?) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
So in the midst of this incredible discourse on love and mercy and promises of the Kingdom to those who mourn, and for the poor, how does this Woe, of when "All men speak well of you" apply? Far more people spoke well of me when I didn't share this doctrine of God's unending love and deliverance. Yet you would modify the verse to say, "all men speak well of thee except the serious christians", thus condemning me. The problem is, that phrase isn't there. Nor does it say blessed are the poor "who are believers" for theirs is the Kingdom... Nor does Scripture say He is the Saviour of ALL men, "exclusively" those who believe. No, but rather He is the Saviour of ALL men, "especially" those who believe. Especially is a sub set of all men who are saved. Who are saved? ALL men. but everyone in his own order...1Cor 15
I deleted this comment to replace it with a corrected one. There was an unclear phrase at the beginning.
As to "Aionios", you are way overdue to explain Plato's use of the word which even secular sources believe to mean "eternal".
More circular reasoning. You assume because you have a translation in which the translator used eternal in place of aionios in Plato's statement that it proves Plato meant eternal when he chose the word aionios. I spent a little time working on translating the poem and found at the outset that it is not a translation but a paraphrase, which is obvious by the opening line. I did not take the time to go through the whole poem because I am very very slow and would need help with many of the words and having discovered in the first line the English you presented as a translation was merely a paraphrase, I opted to put the poem on a back shelf.
You also are overdue in responding to the meaning of aionios in Jude 1:7. Regardless of how Plato used the word, this is how the Holy Spirit uses it. What does it mean here?
"So, you would expect that if you were to receive this doctrine, that NOT ONE PERSON in your fellowship would NOT reject you? "
That would be my hope and expectation. That is why I am there :-)
You highlighted all of the negatives of a strong fellowship. A positive is accountability . . . and protection. Hebrews 13:17"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account"
Who gives the Lord account for your soul, Jack? Has no-one in your fellowshp or family had the love and courage to oppose you on this?
You decry the Scripture against heresy. What do you do with heretics in your fellowship?
Jesus said, "Let him be to thee as a heathen man and a publican" (Matt. 18) Read the context . . . the focus is severe enough to advocate death by drowning for those that "stumble" simple believers.
Paul said, "Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Cor. 5)
"From such turn away" 2 Timothy 3
If is godly to reject an erring brother for a time who will not repent.
Lev. 19:17 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him." Failure to rebuke is equivalent to hatred.
"Luke 6:26 'Woe unto you'
Look at the context!"
I did :-) There are a whole series of woes . . . the same number as blessings, in fact, Jack. The discourse ends with, "immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." Sounds like a passage meant to give strong warnings.
False prophets are known by messages that people like. If I preach the fear of God, repentance, hell-fire for those that that don't on one corner, and you preach "Every one of you will be in heaven some day" on another corner, they will likely stone me, and make you their pastor. Many would come your way, just a few mine. You can't deny it.
Jesus said His way was tough to find (narrow) and few would choose it. The "Wide Gate" attracts the vast majority.
"Ainios" You repeatedly pressed the notion that aionios is deliberately mistranslated "eternal", that a clear minded linguist would never come to that conclusion. That this word deliberately perverted by those pressing a particular agenda.
Let the record reflect that:
1) Your own sources admit that the word was likely created by Plato . . . this is the original usage.
2) Plato's need for the word clearly revolves around the need to express "eternity", a concept not much discussed in the secular world. The fact that secular linguists, with no theology to cloud their thinking, unhesitatingly translate it "eternal".
Hard, serious linguistics have provided powerful support that "aionios" means exactly what the English translators give us. You can't dismiss this with a wave of that hand. A serious "Berean" would be grappling and agonizing over the implications . . .
Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Cities don't "give themselves over to fornication" . . . people in the cities do. Yes . . . they are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire as we speak . . . They got burned up, drowned, turned to salt . . . and from there into hell.
This is the context, vs. 6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
Clearly the judgment is "eternal", in eternity.
Quote from Alfred:
Cities don't "give themselves over to fornication" . . . people in the cities do. Yes . . . they are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire as we speak . . . They got burned up, drowned, turned to salt . . . and from there into hell. . .
Clearly the judgment is "eternal", in eternity.
Are you absolutley positive?
So, exactly what is God talking about here:
Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem;...
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by;...20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?...26 Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours...28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians... multiplied thy fornication...as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband...Eze 16:35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD...Eze 16:40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.
41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.
42 So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.
Eze 16:46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, ...and thy younger sister,...is Sodom and her daughters.
47 ... thou wast corrupted more than they in all thy ways.
48 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
...but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
52 Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.
53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Let him who has ears hear. God, who knows the end from the beginning, proclaimed He would restore Sodom to her former estate long before Jude was written. Knowing this, why did the Holy Spirit choose the word aionios to describe the judgment of Sodom?
(see next comment for conclusion)
Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD:
That would be my hope and expectation. That is why I am there :-)
I believe you believe that, but I don't believe that is the truth. I believe it would be far more accurate to say you are there because you were born there. To leave, even though you have desired to leave at times, would cost too much in the loss of family and friends. You are "accepted" in the organization which, would reject you should you teach your daughters that it's okay to be a talk during Sunday service. That is, to voice their opinion amongst the group during the gathering. Or should you decide that hair is the covering God has given women therefore they don't need to wear hats during assembly. Or if you believed that any time three or more are gathered, Jesus was there in the midst therefore three or more of Jesus saved ones could partake of "the Lord's Table". In fact, your group believes that they are the "only" ones who have the true doctrine, and that anyone who disagrees with them isn't worthy to partake of the Lord's table. Because of these severe guidelines, you have been conditioned all your life to believe as they teach. Even so you have seen error and strained against their closedmindedness, to your credit. Yet you are not able to cross certain lines, the cost is too high and you know you would have to bear it.
If you were to even consider, out loud, the truths of Scripture I have been clearly exposing to you, you would risk the loss of fellowship of your own extended family. I suspect that this debate is being watched and you are being evaluated if not coached by someone in your gathering.
What would the consequences be to you if you were to begin to weaken?
Would they forbid you to continue in this discussion?
Have you noticed that you still have not been able to admit that you have a greater motive for NOT considering this truth, than I have for considering it?
Who gives the Lord account for your soul, Jack? Has no-one in your fellowshp or family had the love and courage to oppose you on this?
First of all, not surprisingly, nearly everyone who has heard this doctrine from me has initially opposed it. But some were better than others, like Bereans, they took it to the Word of God. Of those who took it to the word, many have received it as truth, many are holding it and pondering it still. There are those who were sure it was wrong, and like you, turned to Scriptures that seem to refute it, but never really allowed that it could be true. These reject every verse that affirms it as not possibly affirming it but as being misunderstood in their plain sense. These are not like the Bereans. Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Notice it doesn’t say, “ Searched the scriptures daily to prove they weren’t so. That is totally different. There is no readiness of mind in that approach.
You decry the Scripture against heresy. What do you do with heretics in your fellowship?
You should look into the word that here is translated “heresy”. I’ve never had to deal with a heretic in our church by anything more than teaching truth, so far all the “heretics” left willingly. I’m not saying that everyone who has left our church is a heretic either.
Secondly, re: your question “Who gives the Lord account for your soul, Jack? Have you not read, Alfred?
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
(The gospel I preach does not deny Jesus as the Christ in any way, if it does, then your gospel does more. Yours denies His power to deliver, it limits the power of the resurrection to only a few, denying His power to save. He is only a partial Christ in your version of the “gospel”. It denies the Father and the Son of their inheritance and paints them as beings who hate their enemies, even their own created enemies. The version I put forth denies them nothing! According to this testimony of scripture, I am not a liar.)
Continued:
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
(Where do you perceive me or this doctrine to be denying the Son or not acknowledging the Son? In contrast, your doctrine denies the Son. It states that He was unable or unwilling to accomplish the stated will His Father sent Him to accomplish thereby denying Him that which He purchased with His precious blood.)
(I not only acknowledge the Son, but I acknowledge his glory and majesty and wisdom and love and patience, His bountiful mercy and grace and His perfect accomplishment of the will of God His Father I also acknowledge all His righteous judgments.
Ac 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets. )
(Continuing in 1Jo 2)
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal (aionios) life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. (Those who deny the Son).
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
We are to abide in "WHO?" The Gospel Hall? Who do we need to teach us? …ye need not that any man teach you…
The head of every man is "The Gospel Hall"; Peter; Paul; Your Pastor; the Pope? God Forbid!
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
I see a beautiful truth in the Word that you apparently do not see. I believe that you don’t see it, but you don’t believe that I do see it. Or maybe you believe that I’m hallucinating. Interesting that many have had the same vision. Perhaps we are deluded, and you are correct. I first heard these things many years ago "with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures" to see if they were so, and I have concluded that they are. Still the more I search, the more it is confirmed for me. For some reason it is not that way with you. I have explored some possible reasons in several of the later comments, yet I still realize it is possible that I am wrong and you are right, but I cannot see it that way and still be honest with myself. I have already lost much for this belief and I stand to lose more. I don’t see gain in my future as a result of teaching this truth, except for in the aionios life, that is, knowing God better, and Jesus whom He has sent and the treasures of Kingdom life, that is, righteousness, peace and joy.
If not for His mercies I would be consumed, but His mercies are new every morning. My love for Him is growing exponentially. For this I rejoice and will continue to rejoice.
That was from the heart. The mercies part . . . I am with you. In the end we are all reduced to rubble. He is all . . . and without Him we are/I am nothing.
I just can't understand how can you have come all this way and not have dealt harder with some of these things.
What did Mr. Gothard say? That would have been a gauntlet worth running.
I love you . . . I really do. Such an incredible life changing blessing to so many. I owe you a great debt, no matter what.
What did Mr. Gothard say? That would have been a gauntlet worth running.
Interesting you should ask. I was working at a Long Beach Seminar as an usher. (That should date it somewhat.) I sent a message to Bill through his right hand man John Stevens?. Bill never responded directly but kind of brushed it off. No discussion, no consideration, just something like We don't hold to this. He never spoke with me directly, and it didn't seem to be on his radar. I would have loved to discuss it with him. But I was left to search it out on my own. At the time I was very busy with life and raising a family, so I just kinda kept my antenna up whenever we crossed verses that seemed to refute it, I would check them out.
I love you . . . I really do. Such an incredible life changing blessing to so many. I owe you a great debt, no matter what.
Thanks for saying that. Of course you owe me nothing except the continuing debt to love as I owe you also. If in any way I have been a blessing, we know that it is the Lord's doing, not mine.
If I grow to be old and senile, I may forget this exchange of ideas, but it won't be soon, and I will read it again in the mean time. Thanks for the thought and energy you've put into it.
I remember John Stevens.
I remember you saying once that you considered Mr. Gothard the wisest man you knew. If that was the case - at least at that time - would you not absolutely have needed to get his input on this before making a leap?
"In the multitude of counselors there is safety" Prov. 24:6
On "Unction":
The chapter following the one that says we have an unction and "know all things" says this:
1John 3:6 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
If you sin and have a need to confess those sins, as the same author states in 1:9, then "Knowing all things" cannot mean you do not need other people's advice, even rebuke.
The answer to both of these bold statements is - again - found in the salvation of the spirit, the work of God that is complete, irreversable, and something - born of God within us - that cannot sin. We also have an "old man" that cannot but sin . . . and our soul - mind, will, emotions - which is the battleground for this conflict to play itself out.
We need the counsel of others - God sometimes weakens us to the point that without humbling ourselves to seek and take the counsel of others we will fail. He glorifies the weakest among us to this purpose, so that we may need, and love, every part of the body.
I remember you saying once that you considered Mr. Gothard the wisest man you knew. If that was the case - at least at that time - would you not absolutely have needed to get his input on this before making a leap?
"In the multitude of counselors there is safety"
It is true, I considered that Bill Gothard was and still is one of the wisest men I know.
I sought his input but he was closed to the idea of even discussing or considering it. He is the one responsible for introducing me to the tools I used to search out the Greek. He encouraged us to search the scripture as for hidden treasures, which requires digging and he used that analogy to press the point that as we look into the original languages it's like breaking rocks open to discover precious jewels and gems and gold.
I would hardly consider my approach to have been a leap. I pondered, and kept my eyes open for somewhere around twenty years and slowly, very slowly became more and more convinced that this doctrine was true. I didn't even pursue it because of my awareness of my ability to find what I wanted when I looked in the Word. My desire was to understand the truth, not to invent or fabricate an illusion. It wasn't until the last few years that the Lord has opened my eyes to an overwhelming confirmation of Scripture in hundreds of verses throughout the entire Bible.
The Lord has surely opened Bill Gothards eyes to a wealth of wisdom and insight, but remember,no man has all truth. Peter didn't, Paul didn't! Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit and Jesus delighted in hiding things that are only revealed to babes.
I would love to be able to sit with our brother Bill and show him what I'm thinking, and see if he see's it too. But I would not change by belief simply cause he didn't believe it or see it. However if anyone is able to give sound answers to my honest questions, something I don't believe you were able to do, (no offense). I would then be able to believe differently. What I believe is not a function of my will, but more a processing of the evidence I've been given. Pretty much on every level, to me the evidence has weighed in the direction of God's Sovereignty, His unending love for all, from which not even death can seperate. His righteous and just judgement, always to remedy, never to work ill. Like the wrath of a loving Father who beats his child so that he will not die.
The many verses proclaiming all will come to Him, all knees shall bow professing Jesus as Lord. The English translations prejudice translating the same word as judge sometimes and damn others, or hell sometimes grave other times, or age sometimes but other times eternal. This evidence causes me to believe the translators had a preconceived idea that they added to the actual words.
I assure you, I trust Jesus as my Saviour, and I do not deny Him. I love Him and He is with me even as I write this. His peace is very heavy on me. "Let the peace of God rule in your hearts." Bill Gothard taught us that this verse means "Let the peace of God "rule" - meaning "be the umpire", "make the call". Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Until the Lord opens my eyes to see differently, I am bound to believe what I believe, based on the evidence I have been given.
Love you and appreciate you in Christ, our Saviour.
By the way, I am surrounded by counselors who are not afraid to tell me when they think I'm off base, and I listen and examine myself at every rebuke and reproof. They are on both sides of the fence, so I can't determine the truth or error of these things simply by my counselors.
"What I believe is not a function of my will, but more a processing of the evidence I've been given."
God has designed the body to contain "checks and balances" . . . because nobody has it all together. Anyone who believes they have it all together and it no genunine need of these balances is on dangerous ground.
1 Cor 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
Proverbs 26:12 "Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit[literally "eyes"]? There is more hope of a fool than of him."
That double-edged sword obviously cuts both ways.
If you have not been desperate enough to demand of yourself to hear out the wisest man you know, you have not done due diligence and cannot claim objectivity based on evidence.
Given the incredible consequences if you are wrong, the fear of the Lord alone would have kept you from commiting to this until you had been challenged by the wisest believers you know.
If you inwardly believe yourself to be superior in spiritual understanding to anyone you know, particularly anyone who doesn't see what you see, then that is pride, and will bring about a fall.
If you have not been desperate enough to demand of yourself to hear out the wisest man you know, you have not done due diligence and cannot claim objectivity based on evidence.
Given the incredible consequences if you are wrong, the fear of the Lord alone would have kept you from commiting to this until you had been challenged by the wisest believers you know.
What do you propose I do? I invite you to speak to Bill about it. I've tried, and he wasn't available. I would be happy to sit down with him if he's interested. I'd set aside a couple of days to discuss it with him, if he is interested. Let me know what he says.
I am most happy to discuss this with anyone you suggest, if they are willing.
Do you suppose your elders would like to discuss this with me?
Where should I go to get this counsel that you say I so desperately need?
If William Barclay, considered the "Prince of Expositors" and Billy Graham the "Great Evangelist" and Bill Gothard all advised you that you should believe in and preach Christian Universalism, what would you do?
See my newest post from William Barclay.
There are things you have considered in the last several weeks that it is apparent you have not thought about previously. I know I am not the wisest person you could be talking to . . .
I have personally called Mr. Gothard on the phone - long before he knew who I was - and discussed things. He makes time for all kinds of situations and people. A significant, well known and respected ATI Dad who - in his mind - is about to use his influence to spread heresy would get his attention and time.
If you were desperate you would already have figured out a way to have the conversation. My opinion is that nothing Mr. Gothard - or anyone else - believes or says right now would change your mind. Forgetting the hypothetical, am I right?
I have taken major swings at the pillars that undergird your perspectives . . . Key points have been disproven - the most significant perhaps being that aionios as eternal is the work of theologians - and you have hardly blinked.
Even if you can refute me - which you have not so far, at least in that issue - your reactions are not those of a man desperate for the truth and deeply afraid of sinning against the Lord and mortally stumbling others by teaching error.
Your convictions are not based on any particular point/Scripture, or even a clearly understood cadre of points or Scriptures which, if cleared up by a wise man, would cause you to abandon this. You just know that God would never do that – and you can never accept a God that would. Again . . . am I fundamentally correct?
You said, based on John 17:3, that eternal life IS knowing God, which brings it down to something that may be easily bounded by this life.
1 John 1:2, same author: "For the life was manifested, and we have seen IT, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us"
Eternal life is clearly something objective, outside ourselves . . . it is Jesus, it is God's life, heavenly life . . . it is linked later on with being "born of God".
1 John 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." Future tense, pie in the sky. Here is another: Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."
Your restricted definition of "knowing God" being the sum and substance of eternal life cannot explain these verses.
Jack: You should park each of these as a separate topic . . .
===============================================
“Pretty much on every level, to me the evidence has weighed in the direction of God's Sovereignty . . . “
In Mathew 23 – again -
His sovereign love is like a hen;
Yet what He wants He never got,
He said, “I WOULD . . . but ye WOULD NOT”
God clearly wants things that He does not get . . . No need for wrath otherwise. Especially if you allege that He controls our will . . . God cannot make a man do something and then condemn them for doing it. If He could He is a crueler God than the One I give you . . . for He could make all men repent, love Him, and never sin, but chooses to make them sin so He can make them suffer.
===============================================
“His unending love for all, from which not even death can separate . . .”
There is no Scriptural basis for this for unbelievers. In fact, He speaks of an uncrossable chasm, of unquenchable fire, undying worms . . . and a Scripture that clearly states that the eternal state – as entered – can never be changed:
Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. "
===============================================
“His righteous and just judgement, always to remedy, never to work ill. Like the wrath of a loving Father who beats his child so that he will not die.”
This is your wish – but it is NOT Scriptural. He is always just, but He definitely works ill toward people in His wrath. He clearly commands us to love our enemies, defined by giving them food and fire . . . but to stop there is to be out of balance. He also commands us elsewhere to work ill toward our neighbors by depriving them of basic necessities, even life. ANY evil that you can imagine that a man can do to his neighbor, God commands to be done at certain times.
Romans 13:4 “ But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” There is NOTHING redeeming about that statement (ends with a period) . . . it just means – the fact that you are doing ill toward God and others, ill will be done to you to make you stop . . . period.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
To love one you must hate another . . . no redemption, you cut off your emotions toward the “lesser love”.
===============================================
“The many verses proclaiming all will come to Him, all knees shall bow professing Jesus as Lord.”
Matthew 7:21-23 “NOT every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven . . . I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” They bowed, they said, “Lord” . . . yet they were not saved and He threw them out.
===============================================
“The English translations prejudice translating the same word as judge sometimes and damn others”
“Damn” means to condemn . . . Judgement is executed, the person is declared condemned. That one is easy, right?
===============================================
“or hell sometimes grave other times”
If you are talking and thinking, it ain’t the grave. And . . . Scripture presents hell as endless decay of still living individuals, consistent with what an earthly grave is but a shadow of.
===============================================
“or age sometimes but other times eternal.”
Some words have multiple meanings and uses . . . the context makes it clear. “Aionios” is not one of them . . . it is NEVER translated “age” except as in “from eternity past”.
===============================================
“This evidence causes me to believe the translators had a preconceived idea that they added to the actual words.”
The KJV translators – for the record – were about as diverse a bunch of folks as you can imagine. Anglicans and Puritans, forced together by the King's command. But they had no problem between with eternal life and death from original texts . . . neither did Luther . . . Darby . . . These were powerful scholars in Hebrew and Greek . . . you cannot dismiss them all as morons or compromised.
A definition of insanity, I’ve been told, is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result… Our discussion is nearing that description. I could simply cut and paste clear refutations of many of the last comments you have posted. Love compels me to help you see what you are simply unable to comprehend at this time, but alas, I’m thinking it is time to agree to disagree. Your group of comments displays a startling lack of comprehension of so many things I have told you. Clear things, not hard to understand things.
I believe you never read many of my posts. If you did, you didn’t address so many points I have made, and you continue to ignore them. For example: you maintain that Some words have multiple meanings and uses . . . the context makes it clear. “Aionios” is not one of them . . . it is NEVER translated “age” except as in “from eternity past”.
Yet you have never answered my post: March 10, 2010 7:42AM and March 10, 2010 7:47AM, regarding the Bible prophecy of the return and restoration of Sodom.
How do you expect to convince me hell is eternal, when you disregard the facts that cause me to think otherwise, and dismiss them with arguments that don’t address the reasons that have caused me to believe them.
For example: “His unending love for all, from which not even death can separate . . .”
To which you respond:
There is no Scriptural basis for this for unbelievers.
What is not Scriptural about this?
Ro 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Jesus loves sinners yesterday, today and forever. That is as Scriptural as it can get. Unbelief is a sin.
Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of ALL men. E S P E C I A L L Y those who BELIEVE. NOT EXCLUSIVELY! If Jesus saves those who believe, then he saves all men.
The last thing I want to address here is your misconception of the whole concept of time. Hope is not hope if we already have what we hope for. God, being love hopes all things and patiently waits for them. None of the verses you quoted had anything to do with final judgment. If you understood the concept of aionios, and of the Kingdom being righteousness, peace and joy. You would have no problem seeing how the verses you provided apply to things which pertain to time and are not speaking of the life after time has ceased. I have tried to show this to you but I’m sorry to say that I am helpless to cause you to see or understand.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
You have been free to warn me and I appreciate your warnings. In the same way, I warn you, that your teaching is hindering those you influence from entering into the aionios life Jesus has provided them. Not ultimate reconciliation but life in Christ’s Kingdom. The treasures of the fruit of the Spirit.
Lu 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
"Let him who has ears hear. God, who knows the end from the beginning, proclaimed He would restore Sodom to her former estate long before Jude was written. Knowing this, why did the Holy Spirit choose the word aionios to describe the judgment of Sodom?"
Jack: Is this really significant to you? I will disprove this below . . . you tell me what difference it will make.
You tell me . . . when WAS Sodom restored? As near as I know, that city and ALL of its inhabitants are still at the bottom of the dead sea, their souls in hell.
That race had ceased to exist long before Ezekiel's time, let alone Jude's time. You aren't helping yourself here.
That mention of Sodom in Exekiel is THE last time that name is mentioned chronologically in Scripture . . . until these words:
Matthew 11:23 "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."
No restoration there.
The LAST mention of Sodom is this:
Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Sodom . . . is Jerusalem in Revelation. That is the end.
So . . . the eternal judgement IS eternal. Sodom is spiritually linked to Jerusalem . . . which appears to be fully what the Lord was saying through Ezekiel.
"“His unending love for all, from which not even death can separate . . .”
To which you respond:
There is no Scriptural basis for this for unbelievers.
What is not Scriptural about this?"
You proceed to dump a ton of Scriptures on me . . . better to take one - the best one - and explain what you believe it means.
I do not agree with a love from which not even death - and here I am thinking of the "second death" can separate. I say that is not Scriptural.
I will comment on each Scripture you put forward . . . if I am missing your point, please let me know.
Ro 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
This says nothing about consequences of rejecting that love . . . this looks to the past, He has loved us.
1Jo 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
How is that propitiation actually applied to the sinner? vs. 12 "Your sins are forgiven you FOR HIS NAMES SAKE." ch 1 v. 9 "If we CONFESS OUR SINS, He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins . . . "
Clearly the propitiation is no good until appropriated by the sinner . . . trusting in Jesus Name . . . walking in the light by confessing . . .
So . . . this says nothing about consequences of not doing so in this life . . . does it?
Joh 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
next verse "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." No obedience on our part = no laying down of His life on our behalf. Do you read it differently?
(continued)
(continuation)
"Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Jesus loves sinners yesterday, today and forever. That is as Scriptural as it can get. Unbelief is a sin."
If that were true in the way you mean it, then He would be forever angry. "GOD is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7:11) And hate certain people and never stop: Romans 9:13 "Esau have I hated." And never forgive . . . "That will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 34:7) He won't listen to a person who has sinned: "I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble." Jer 11:14 "There I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more" Hosea 9:15
The latter verse states in black and white that He stops loving certain people at certain times. You are out of balance, Jack.
"Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of ALL men. E S P E C I A L L Y those who BELIEVE. NOT EXCLUSIVELY! If Jesus saves those who believe, then he saves all men."
There is a point I missed. How can you prove that all men will eventually believe? I have already proven several times that saying "Lord, Lord" and bowing the knee is NOT the same as trusting in Him. Is that where you are going?
As to "Savior of all men", I have put forward repeatedly my understanding that this refers to a potential or desired class that He is is seeking to save, excluding, for example, angels. This is consistent with John 6: "They shall be ALL taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" There is a clear disconnect between TEACHING and LISTENING/LEARNING.
The word "Thelo" is used in both "WOULD have all men to be saved" and "How often WOULD I have gathered . . . and ye WOULD not" Matt. 23 He clearly does not get what He WOULD, otherwise we would never sin [and I have proven elsewhere that He does NOT want us to sin] . . . please address this.
Please respond to the "Lord, Lord" verse and the use of "Thelo" as I have brought that up many times.
Explain why "Savior of all" does not refer to His intentions only . . . and that He does not always get what He wants.
Tell me why you get to ignore the grumpy verses about God's unchangable character and print out only the "love" ones. Heresy is "truth out of balance". All love, no hate = no balance
"Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Jesus loves sinners yesterday, today and forever. That is as Scriptural as it can get. Unbelief is a sin."
If that were true in the way you mean it, then He would be forever angry. "GOD is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalm 7:11) And hate certain people and never stop: Romans 9:13 "Esau have I hated." And never forgive . . . "That will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 34:7) He won't listen to a person who has sinned: "I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble." Jer 11:14 "There I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more" Hosea 9:15
Fair enough. I used those verses to illustrate that God is loving towards sinners. This is Scriptural. So we might ask, "Why is God loving to sinners?" I would say, because "God is Love". In this He never changes. This isn't a transitory situation, but rather His essence. You will not produce a Scripture which proclaims, "God is Anger", or "God is Wrath", but you will find God is Love, and "God IS a consuming fire". From these attributes He never changes. Fire consumes all the wood, hay and stubble, but the gold and silver and precious stones aren't consumed. We all have wood, hay and stubble in our lives. We also all have gold, silver and precious stones. Every man, woman and child is fearfully and wonderfully made. All children are proclaimed to be the heritage of the Lord, that is... His inheritance. Every fruit of every womb is His reward, made in the image of God, possessing some gold, silver and precious stones. If I think more highly of myself than of others, I am proud. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. God is Love, God never Changes. All His judgments are for purifying. God IS the Father of ALL in that He created everyone, and Jesus taught the multitudes to call Him father when they pray. As a father I can tell you, and you know we would never choose to bring unending punishment on your children. It would be more loving and merciful to annihilate them, which certainly could have been an option for God, but of course, He doesn't annihilate from existence. Neither will He punish without end, without benefit, that would not be love.
"As a father I can tell you, and you know we would never choose to bring unending punishment on your children. It would be more loving and merciful to annihilate them, which certainly could have been an option for God, but of course, He doesn't annihilate from existence. Neither will He punish without end, without benefit, that would not be love."
Yes, it would not be love . . . and at times it is wrong to love. In this statement you have as clearly as anything exposed your error.
If I had a son that - God forbid - rebelled against me, rejected me, became a drunk and drug addict . . . and despite my earnest and broken-hearted attempts to help him, refused to change, at some point I would cut off all my affections from him, hand him over to the authorities, and banish him from my home and life forever.
Wouldn't you?
How can you say you love Jesus if you won't do what He says?
Matthew 10:37 "He that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his . . . children . . . he cannot be my disciple."
Those children never belonged to you or me . . . God could have given them to anyone, just as He gave children that He could have given to us to others. They belong to Him . . . and He says what goes. And if He says to stop loving them, you are sinning against Him by continuing to do so. That is love . . . unholy love.
Yes, it would not be love . . . and at times it is wrong to love. In this statement you have as clearly as anything exposed your error.
If I had a son that - God forbid - rebelled against me, rejected me, became a drunk and drug addict . . . and despite my earnest and broken-hearted attempts to help him, refused to change, at some point I would cut off all my affections from him, hand him over to the authorities, and banish him from my home and life forever.
Wouldn't you?
Dear Alfred, No, I would not! I have a continuing debt to love everyone, especially the children God has given me to nurture for Him.
What you said here is very sad.
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, ...kill, ...steal, ... bear false witness, ...covet; and ... any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love (agapao) thy neighbour as thyself.
The verses you quoted do not even support your assertion.
Matthew 10:37 "He that loveth (phileo) son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Luke 14:26 "If any man come to me, and hate not his . . . children . . . he cannot be my disciple."
In Matt. 10:37 the word for love is "phileo" not "agape". This is a totally different concept. You also are aware that hate in Luke 14:26 is not a command to hate your wife and children, but as the parallel passage in Matt. states it is to like less. In the heirarchy of who is most important to you, God must be first. Just because you have failed as a parent doesn't give you a right or the responsibility to hate your children.
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love(agapao) your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
You judged thus:
In this statement you have as clearly as anything exposed your error.
My error is that God is always love? Your error is that He isn't always love but that He hates His enemies, contrary to His own law. My error causes me to be compelled to love everyone always. Your error compels you to hate your own wife and children if they become stubborn sinners.
How did Christ treat us when we were sinners? By loving us to His own death. How are we commanded to love our wives? Same way.
Alfred, the truth is "in this statement you have as clearly as anything exposed your error".
I put these verses seperate because I know how much you don't like it when I reinforce my arguements with more than one verse at a time. Feel free to read them or ignore them, they are for the benefit of anyone who wants to know what God teaches about us loving one another.
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
The next arguement I might anticipate is that Jesus only was telling us to love believers. A certain lawyer once asked Jesus for clarification on this point.
Lu 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
“My error causes me to be compelled to love everyone always. Your error compels you to hate your own wife and children if they become stubborn sinners. “
The Lord commands you to do exactly as I said – worse actually :
Deut 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall HIS FATHER AND HIS MOTHER lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and FEAR.”
I said “banish from my home and life forever” . . . that is exactly what is commanded.
Your commitment to “love everyone always” would cause you to reject the Lord’s command. Does this bother you at all?
You do NOT understand the Lord . . . otherwise you would not have so quickly and self-righteously condemned me.
Even accusing me of keeping people from eternal life. That is stunning, Jack . . . you, of all people, run the risk of taking that fear out of the equation that God is so desperately trying to put in.
The sure end of death by the very parents that brought him into the world [and being the witnesses against him, they would throw the first stones – Deut. 17:7] would be the strongest motivation to not descend into the mire of drunkenness and rebellion . . . get desperate, and get right.
And the sure result of endless hell is the strongest motivation possible to put the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of wisdom, into a man, to cause him to seek the Lord while He may be found . . . before it is eternally too late.
If I am right, the the Lord is grieved with what you are doing, your perspectives and feelings – which have clearly betrayed you – notwithstanding.
Let's see how the Lord Jesus, our perfect example dealt with the issue.
Le 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Doesn't sound like Jesus follows your prescription for obedience.
Mt 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Your doctrine puts you in danger of missing forgiveness.
Your commitment to “love everyone always” would cause you to reject the Lord’s command. Does this bother you at all?
What command am I rejecting? The command to stone sinners? I can't fulfill that command, I have sin. Jesus didn't have sin and he didn't seem to feel obliged to stone the woman taken in adultery. Perhaps you are mis understanding something here.
I am under obligation to discipline my children, for their benefit. But this requires love. Love is not angry. Love doesn't do things to others for ill but for benefit.
Pr 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. (RSV)
Pr 3:12 for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. (RSV)
Since stoning merely destroyed the opportunity to continue in the torment of rebellion and sin, it was a mercy extended in love to rebellious children. This is in no way analogous to placing one in unending torment with no possibility of relief, ever. Because there is a resurrection of the dead. There is life, after death. There is hope for the sinner.
You do NOT understand the Lord . . . otherwise you would not have so quickly and self-righteously condemned me.
Even accusing me of keeping people from eternal life. That is stunning, Jack . . . you, of all people, run the risk of taking that fear out of the equation that God is so desperately trying to put in.
There is a fear that prevents some from sinning, but the fear you advocate prevents most from approaching the Loving God, the merciful Saviour. We aren't saved by being good!
Tit 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The "message" you bring causes people to reject the "free gift" in exchange for a fearful dread that causes us to live according to the law or be damned. It focuses on us being good. The message you share is that "IF" we are good enough, and fearful enough, then we can enter His kingdom and escape eternal damnation upon death. The message I'm sharing is that we can never be good on our own, but God has forgiven all. All we do is enter into the salvation He has already provided. It's free! It's available now! It's for all! The sooner you enter in, the sooner you leave the torments of this world. You can now have the treasures of the Kingdom or you can reject them until you are filled up with frustration, bitterness, agony, pain, guilt, loneliness, suffering and self pity. You can go through this entire life and die without Christ. You can enter the next age in torment, but you will eventually come to understand and to seek God. When you confess your sins, He is faithful and just to forgive you your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness, and He is eager to do so. That's what He died for. Why wait? You are only cheating yourself. You are being robbed of the true treasures which are: righteousness, peace, joy, gentleness, long suffering, temperance, self control, brotherly love, and fellowship with God and with men.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath aionios life; AND I will raise him up at the last day.
Two promises. One, aionios life! The abundant life. The life we now possess if we abide in Jesus.
Two, "and I will raise"...at the last day. Future life. Endless life! Immortality.
“Let's see how the Lord Jesus, our perfect example dealt with the issue.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?”
Deuteronomy 17:6 “At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. “
Jesus meticulously kept the law . . . no witnesses, no execution. Had 2-3 witnesses presented themselves, Jesus would not have stopped the stoning.
So . . . your answer is for parents to never accuse their children before the law? David tried that . . . with Absalom, after he killed his brother . . . David should have seen judgment take place, but he wanted to be kind instead. So . . . instead of one sinner dying, a large portion of the nation rebelled against the Lord, became guilty of equal crimes as they killed David’s men and tried to kill him too. Many thousands died as a result. By not cutting off his emotions towards Absalom David sinned against the entire nation and really ended up hating them so he could love him.
The correct principle is that you can never love all people all the time . . . and you must hate some to love others. Executing judgment – without mercy and without love – is an end in itself, to protect the ones you love more. Paul said that in 1 Cor. 5 . . . “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” . . . and “Purge therefore the leaven”, referring to the rebellious man. While a punishment may result in repentance, that is often not the primary goal. The goal is to warn others to not do the same thing.
There is NO Scriptural support for the notion of punishment ALWAYS being for the purpose of redemption. Chastening verses of the Father towards His children don’t count. God may be the Father in one sense by creation of all men, but He does not count the unbelievers as children . . . otherwise the following make no sense:
Galatians 4:5 “That we might receive the adoption of sons. “ At salvation we do not receive something we already have. John 8:44 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. “ John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” Sonship comes when one receives, believes . . . not before. THOSE are the sons HE chastens for their good.
“What command am I rejecting? The command to stone sinners? I can't fulfill that command, I have sin.”
That makes no sense. Then mortal men can never execute God’s judgment on anyone. Yet HE forcefully demanded that they do.
The point was that they were guilty of THIS sin . . . adultery . . . and they knew it, likely of each other. Had they witnessed against her they would have witnessed against each other. The notion of sinlessness being a condition to perform judgment God commands would have been challenged by them . . . even Solomon said, “For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. “ Ecclesiast. 7:20 God commanded sinners over and over to kill other sinners . . . but never those guilty of the same crimes.
“Since stoning merely destroyed the opportunity to continue in the torment of rebellion and sin, it was a mercy extended in love to rebellious children.”
That is really bizarre, Jack. There is no love in any of that . . . just justice.
Numbers 25 “And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. . . . And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: And he shall have it, and his seed after him, [even] the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.”
He was rewarded – NOT for loving the sinning man – but for loving Israel by destroying him.
Lev. 24 “And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: . . . And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin. And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.”
Explain the love to the blasphemer here . . . I mean, he SURELY would have repented and not ever done it again if mercy had been extended to him, which you would have done. The Lord would have none of it . . . explain it, Jack. If I had put this in an example that you did not recognize to represent Scripture, you would once again have condemned the Lord as you seek to justify yourself.
There are many more examples I could pick, as you know yourself . . . Elijah slaying the 400 prophets of Baal . . . people he likely didn’t even know . . . The Israelites – without feeling - slaying man, woman, child of entire nations, leaving none alive . . . where is the love there? NOBODY who could repent and live? Be won to the Lord by patient love?
Psalm 139 “Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I HATE THEM WITH PERFECT HATRED: I count them mine enemies.”
This is, of course, the man “after God’s heart”. A man who loved God and knew Him better than most anyone. Explain the love here, Jack . . . to the victim, that is. There is a lot of love to the Lord.
Which is my point – again – you can always love . . . God always loves . . . but He does not love all people at all times, and He does not love equally, sometimes hating those that hate Him so He can love others.
Luke 13: “There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, EXCEPT YE REPENT, YE SHALL LIKEWISE PERISH. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, EXCEPT YE REPENT, YE SHALL LIKEWISE PERISH.”
God uses random, sudden, brutal, senseless acts to bring punishment . . . that is NOT love, but justice.
"Your error is that He isn't always love but that He hates His enemies, contrary to His own law."
Again, you are out of balance. What gives you the right to ignore Scriptures that say the exact opposite of Scriptures that you favor? You are not a heretic until you can accept both.
There are two laws at work here. There is clearly a difference between personal hatred - an expression of trying to be God, make my own laws for people to keep, and "judging" those that break them by hating them - and Godly hatred, an expression of loving what - and whom - God loves and hating what - and whom - He hates. The latter is the idea that all other loves die and turn to hatred in comparison to my love for Him.
God forbids the former toward those that oppose me, personally . . . he demands the latter. The latter include many Scriptures already quoted which I do not believe you, except for the "father/mother" verses, have not addressed.
The "Father/Mother" verses you dismiss because they contradict other commands to honor and love the same. Yet the word "hate" - miso - is the same as in every other case. In the Hebrew it is “Sane” . . . same word for the Lord hating idols in Deuteronomy 16:22 as Him hating Esau in Mal. 1:3. Also Psalms 11:5 “The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. “
Those individuals must conclude at times that we hate them, or else we do not love the Lord. If you can take one person to safety and leave others for certain destruction, the ones you leave conclude you hate them. "Lesser love" is irrelevant - you draw a line, leaving the "lesser" out of your emotions.
Genesis 29:30 “And he [Jacob] loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years. “ This is a “lesser love” . . . verse 32: “And Leah . . . said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. “ Jacob loved them both . . . as far as Leah could tell, he didn’t love her at all.
Addendum to prior post regarding a refusal to kill people God has condemned to death because we are sinners ourselves:
1 Kings 20:42 "And he said unto him[Ahab], Thus saith the LORD, Because thou hast let go out of [thy] hand a man whom I appointed to utter destruction, therefore thy life shall go for his life, and thy people for his people."
Ahab was as big of a sinner as there ever was . . . yet his decision to pardon and not hate and destroy someone God wanted dead was not love but folly . . . and cost him his own life.
"The "message" you bring causes people to reject the "free gift" in exchange for a fearful dread that causes us to live according to the law or be damned. It focuses on us being good. The message you share is that "IF" we are good enough, and fearful enough, then we can enter His kingdom and escape eternal damnation upon death."
You know me better than to assert that this is what I believe or teach. We are not saved by being good enough, we are saved as helpless individuals by trusting Jesus as our Savior. We are not kept saved by being good, we are kept by the work and life of Jesus.
It is strange how you can twist my convictions, and the convictions of virtually everyone you have loved and fellowshipped with.
If I have misrepresented your perspectives, please clarify. Otherwise, please do not misrepresent me.
"Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath aionios life; AND I will raise him up at the last day.
Two promises. One, aionios life! The abundant life. The life we now possess if we abide in Jesus.
Two, "and I will raise"...at the last day. Future life. Endless life! Immortality."
Two promises . . . two different salvations. The first is our spirit . . . we ARE saved . . . the second is our body . . . we WILL BE saved. In between is our soul . . . we ARE BEING saved.
Post a Comment