Scary Hell

I recently saw a sign on a business saying, "If you knew what Hell was like, you would accept Jesus."

I am confident that the people who put up the sign wanted more people to know Jesus, to find hope and live a joyous life.  Its hard for any one phrase or bumper sticker to send the full message of life that people need to find.  I can think of many reasons, however, that this sign would get just the opposite response. 

Many people think they know what Hell is like.  Maybe they just lost a son or daughter to cancer.  Maybe they just lost their home or job.  Maybe they just went through a divorce or difficult relationship break up.  These ordeals can bring such torment, that in comparison to "normal" life, it is Hell.  No doubt many who see this sign feel patronized.

Some people think entering into the religious world is Hell.  How many people that you know have experienced great grief through the Church failing to love unconditionally?  How could this person understand that the Jesus we are offering isn't the same "Jesus" they experienced in the last Church fellowship they were in?  Why change the Hell they know for the more difficult Hell they think they know?

I'm sure I could go on, but enough of negative thinking. 

Consider the message of the traditional Hell.*  Is eternal torment consistent with scriptural teaching?  Is it consistent with the Character of Christ?  Does eternal damnation match up with the Law (eye for an eye, etc.)?  Does the suggestion of an unjust eternal future affirm to people that Christianity (as falsely advertised) is just another "religious Hell?"

If you knew what Jesus was like...

*Note: The basis for our understanding of Hell is Scripture and Scripture alone.  You will find many scriptural supports here and elsewhere for God's redemption of all mankind.  We do not pursue universal salvation because it is reasonable or politically correct!

Invitation

God loves you.  He is pursuing you.  His love never fails.  He will win you.  I cannot tell you what pride or rebellion you need to surrender.  I cannot see what is keeping you from the freedom that God wants you to experience.  I don't know what yoke/imprisonment you need to trade for His yoke, His enslavement.  I could name things I might see but still miss the beautiful work God is doing in you.  You must answer Him.  You must either face or run from Him on your own.  I pray you grasp the solid life that Jesus is holding out to you right now.  Your "life" for His.  Your "world" for His.  Believe me, this is a trade up--but it definitely has its costs too.

He made Him (Jesus) to be sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness (exchange our dead living for his life) of God.  2 Cor. 5:21

Finding Bedrock

MUDDY WATERS
My Family and I love the outdoors.  Rivers, lakes, and the ocean are wonderful playgrounds.  Where my wife and I enjoy the calming scenery of these places, my kids would rather throw rocks or sticks, wade in and splash.  They can't stand it until they've muddied the waters!

When it comes to Biblical doctrine, perhaps Jack and I have unintentionally created the same feeling for you.  Questioning the supposed foundations of our faith can weaken your spiritual legs or muddy the waters, so to speak.  Instead of throwing you for a loop, I want to encourage your deeper study of scriptural doctrine. 

The truth is, I've lived what I feel was a blessed and mostly content life before I was exposed to the possibility that Hell, as most Christians hold it, is not biblically supported.  The idea that Hell might not be eternal first confused me then led me on a challenging quest.  You, too, can go on ignoring this debate and still enjoy a rich life with Jesus!  However, I think you will be richer still, if you test this doctrine as I did.

SOLID GROUND
I want to take a moment to stand with you on solid ground.  Loving and gifted teachers taught me that the Bible, tradition and experience help solidify the Christian's faith.  The Bible witnesses as source, tradition as helpful counsel and experience as affirming testimony.  But do take care--the farther away from the source you travel the more opportunity for error.

These wonderful verses exemplify the power and authority of scripture:

II Tim. 3:15 & 16 says that "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."

The apostle Peter also exhorts us to "remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles." (I Pe 3:2)

Scripture is reliable and today accessible in the original languages to even the most ill-equipped of believers. (You can find free versions of computer Bible programs like Bible Explorer, etc. on the web).  Even without the aid of the original Hebrew and Greek, you can spend time with a concordance studying the usage of individual words like "eternal" or "hell" (like we have here!).

WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT?
Years ago, I attended a church service in which Carol Wimber, wife of Vineyard leader John Wimber, spoke.  John had recently passed away and Carol and a friend stood up and began alternately speaking about the role of Jesus in each of the books of the Bible, Genesis through Revelation.  They began with "He is the Creator" and ended a long time afterward with something like "He is the Alpha and Omega!"  It was a wonderful time of worship and put paid to any doubt concerning the central role of Jesus throughout the Bible.

I believe the Bible testifies to every foundational doctrine in a similiar way.  If it is significant, it is not obscure.  Consider the following bedrock doctrines (Just a short list!):

Doctrine                                     Books Referring To (of the 66 books of the Bible)
The Spirit of God                        
(his personage, his actions, etc.)   (At least 46 of the 66)
The Love of God
(As specifically referred to)            (At least 25 of the 66)
The Sin of Man
(Where the word "sin" occurs)       (At least 39 of the 66)

This does not mean, of course, that the virgin birth of Christ is an obscure doctrine because it is not mentioned throughout the Bible.  This doctrine is part of the bigger doctrine of the character of Christ present in some form in every book of the Bible.

Now lets look at Hell, (Is it a rock solid doctrine?):
The Doctrine of Hell (traditional)
(or a place of eternal torment)          (Occurs in 5 books in the NT only)

We dispute the existence of a place of eternal torment, as you may know by reading our other posts.  However, please note that in it's biblical "footprint" alone, the traditional Doctrine of Hell is very lonely.  The OT knows nothing of a place of eternal torment.  Paul, who wrote most of the NT writes nothing about it.  It seems pretty important to me that if people around me were in danger of being tormented forever, that the warnings against this danger would be far more prolific.

The word Hell (gehenna) occurs 12 times in the books Matthew, Mark, Luke & James.  The word Hell (tartaroo) occurs 1 time in the book of 2 Peter.  There is also another Greek word used for Hell in the King James and it occurs 10 times in the New Testiment.  I did not include this word because it clearly does not refer to a place of eternal torment.  It is the Greek word hades which means the "unseen" or the "grave" and in addition to Matthew and Luke, it occurs in Acts and Revelation.  The Greek word hades is equivalent to the Hebrew word sheol used 65 times in the Old Testiment.  Confusingly enough, the word is used in the King James OT 31 times as "Hell," 31 times as "grave" and 3 times as "pit."  There is no description in the Old Testiment of an eternal torment for sinners (amazing, huh?).

Herein, I have taken on just one of the pillars of the doctrine of Hell: It's solidness/not so solidness.  In other posts we have addressed individual references to Hell and why they do not match up to the traditionally held position.  As always, we welcome your comments and questions.

The "bedrock" doctrines unite us as believers.  I do not think there is a place for the Doctrine of Hell (as tradition holds) in Christianity.  But if you insist, then please do not put it alongside the other clearly defined "bedrock" doctrines of our faith.  It muddies the waters!

Love Never Fails

Universal Salvation. ...even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Ro 5:18
All will be saved. [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. I Ti 2:4
The Reconciliation of all mankind. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself... Col 1:19-20
Good news to all men. Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. Lu 2:10

These are still new ideas to me.  I casually live out my life, running my business, buying groceries, driving around the Southland, occasionally remembering that everyone will be won by our Lord.  I forget that the blood of Jesus now triumphs over the sin and debt of every man, woman, boy and girl.  I find myself surprised by the power of God's intervention in a person's life.  Not one will be left to wander in darkness.  God will leave the 99 to pursue the 1.  A lifetime of believing in the tradition of eternal torment for those who don't follow Christ in this life hinders my thinking.

I am not surprised that you, the reader, have a hard time taking in this "new" idea.  I can only guess at the emotions I would feel, the offense I would have taken five or ten years ago. All kinds of statements come to my mind concerning taking such a "heretical" path away from the tried and true course.  I remember many past judgments I have declared concerning the behavior and beliefs of other Christians.  I smile.  Now I am marginalized, I am the irrational thinker, I am the one reaping the scorn and derision.  And well I should be humbled, one always quick to contradict another's reason, often speaking before thinking, so full of "truth" and short on love.  I really enjoy God's humor in all this!

Inherent in all this is the love of God.  It has never changed.  I have changed and will change some more.  You have changed--your doctrine, your convictions.  We are not the idealists of yesterday nor will we remain as we are in years to come. 

When I consider how best to persuade you of the truth of God's promise of life for the world, I weigh the two extremes.  Should I show you how scripture gives consistent witness, how those proof texts for an eternal Hell are mistranslated and tradition is god for most Christians?  Or, should I show you that the character of God proves out our convictions?

Here in this blog we are trying to do both.  Scripture texts and the character of God revealed in scripture powerfully testify to God's desire to reconcile "all things (Col 1:19-20)." 

The crux of the traditional doctrine of Hell rests on God somehow taking a lobotomy at the end of this life.  His grace, love and power become harsh judgment, hate and powerlessness as he must now sentence most of his created beings to torment without end.  He is inexplicably unable to win them and save them.

I long for you to see that the God who never fails, the One with the keys of Hell and of Death, will accomplish what he has set out to do.  He will win them all!

For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:11-14

Bumper Sticker Theology

Pain is an illusion, you are eternal!

This is the quote I read stenciled across the window of someone's car recently. 

I thought, "No, pain is real and you can't give hope to people unless you recognize this first!"

Maybe you think our disagreement with the Doctrine of Eternal Hell means we don't believe in any "sharp edges."  That we have produced some "loving God" out of touch with the truths of the Bible.  On the contrary, the accuracy of the Bible and the immutability (unchanging character) of God is crucial to our hope! 

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."
Gal 6:7

Men and Women across our nation daily reap what they have sown.  They face difficulty of all kinds.  In addition, many who we would consider upright suffer through incredible challenges, facing hardships from sickness to economical disaster.  Pain is real!  But so are the works of our creator, bringing judgment that leads us with love (Hosea 11:4), and refining trials that make us pure, (I Peter 1:6-7)...and expressing love that is stronger than death (Romans 8:35 & 36).

Into this nation, into this world of pain, we bring a God sized hope!  We point to Christ, His love and eternal purposes.  We offer this breath of life, this moment of joy to the hurting lost sheep (and the hurting "not so lost" sheep) who struggle to grasp or aggressively resist all truth.  We don't hold their lives by a thread over the fires of hell to try to scare it (that is, hell) out of them.  I suspect that many of them are already experiencing these fires right here!

Pain is real.  The blessed hope is real.

In some limited measure, we offer "heaven" right now, right here.  Correction: Jesus offers heaven.  The gift of God (Jesus!) is for all men, women and children right here, right now. 

Come to Jesus, He has a great healing ointment for that cut or bruise you've taken. 

Oh, Come on! How could the whole evangelical movement be wrong?

What? No eternal Hell?
Sounds ridiculous! Every christian knows there is an eternal Hell. What else are we saved from? We are the proclaimers of truth! We are the ones who know. We are the light of the world! This is just too fundamental, it's just too basic! How could all the seminarians miss this? If we could be wrong on this... what else could we have wrong? I don't want to try to rethink all the issues. I am sure that we all can't be wrong on this one. Besides I already know a couple of people who I think need to go to Hell forever. Maybe I just wouldn't want to share eternity with them. (Oh, that doesn't work too well with verses about christians being known by their love, and love your enemies, and if you don't forgive men then neither will I forgive you...)

If I started entertaining the belief that everyone will someday be saved, my christian friends would think I was heretical, and I would lose my close friendships... surely God wouldn't want that! Even my family members would reject me to a degree, maybe even cut off fellowship.

Do these thoughts ring true with you? They are sadly accurate, only I didn't realize this before I began sharing openly that I believed the huge conspiracy that began around the time of Augustine, causing the translations from Greek to Latin to English to become corrupted with the false doctrine which presents a false concept and image of our loving benevolent Father and His beautiful selfless Son.

Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Mt 11:25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


All that said, the severity of the changed relationships that I have experienced as a result of openly and honestly sharing what I believe to be "Good News" (gospel), has been intense, to say the least. I am not bitter, but I have felt and continue to feel the pain of lost fellowship, mainly with those who are scared by the doctrine of the ultimate salvation of all. I miss the respect I once had of those who can't see what I think I see so clearly, especially those in my own family, but I have confidence that this is part of God's good design and plan, and I appreciate the reality that pride is lessened and humility is increased. As a result of this experience, these two portions of Scripture have come alive with feeling and meaning for me:

Just after Jesus opened up and revealed essential truth for "eternal life" many couldn't understand or believe what He said, and this was the result: Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? I believe this was a painful experience that our Lord endured. I never noticed it, or felt the emotion of it until I had experienced brothers and sisters in our fellowship who walked away because the teaching I was sharing was too hard to receive.

The second passage is: Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

I prayed this prayer for years, now and then, but it wasn't until so many in our fellowship walked away, that I began to experience fellowship with my Lord's sufferings in the moment when His disciples walked away.

When Jesus saw them walk away He said, "Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." So Jesus rested in the sovereign will of His Father, and so I rest in the same. (When I'm thinking right.)

That I may know Him... knowing Jesus is life in this age and in the age to come. (aionios life).
And the power of His resurrection... not just powerful enough to raise a few, but powerful enough to raise EVERYONE!
And the fellowship of His sufferings... to experience the same sufferings for the same cause is possibly the deepest form of fellowship!
I still don't think I understand the last phrase...being made conformable unto his death, but I'm sure it will be good thing when it occurs.

God Made Man in His Own Image

Have we made God in our own image? Have we made God to be like us, when we are supposed to become like Him? What is His true image?

Are we 'all-merciful'? HE IS!

Jer 33:11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.

Are we spiritual? HE IS!

Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Are we Love? HE IS!

Pr 10:12 ¶ Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth ALL sins.

Are we perfect? Are we righteous in judgement? HE IS ALL THESE THINGS! AMEN?

I am none of these things.

If I was to IMAGE'n God to be like me, He surely could send multitudes to a state of permanent torment! I AM STUPID. I can't comprehend permanent torment, but God is wise, and He knows even our spirits could not endure that.

Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Why do we make God in the image of one who will be cruel to countless millions who have rejected Him and those who are yet to reject Him? Could it be because at one point in History, men who gained control over the Scriptures, felt it was expedient for men to fear more than they needed too, and so they promoted their image of God, and the myth of God's "eternal damnation" for the good of mankind and for political expediency? If this is the case, the men who did this would be Constantine and Augustine primarily. Before Augustine, the predominant view of the the Church was that held and taught by Paul, and also by Origen.

That's right! Paul never teaches eternal damnation! Now, this is especially amazing, since Paul made this claim:

"Ac 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."

CAN ANYONE READING THIS BLOG SHOW ME ONE VERSE WHERE PAUL WARNS OF ETERNAL DAMNATION? PLEASE COMMENT.

WHILE YOU'RE AT IT, CAN ANYONE SHOW ME ONE VERSE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHERE GOD WARNED US OF THE PENALTY OF ETERNAL TORMENT AS A CONSEQUENCE OF BREAKING HIS LAW???

I EXPECT TO SEE IN THE COMMENTS THE VERSES WARNING MANKIND OF THE ETERNAL DESTINY OF THOSE WHO DIE IN THEIR SINS. IF THEY ARE THERE YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO COME UP WITH DOZENS OF THEM.

Why would God fail to sound the warning regarding this horrendous judgement upon millions upon millions of men, women and children who failed to keep the law? By the way, who has succeded in keeping the law? NO-ONE! NO NOT ONE!

Ps 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And the wisest man in the world asked:

Ec 6:6 ... do not ALL go to one place?

Two observations:

1. If there is "Eternal Damnation", then nobody who lived before Jesus had a fair shot at escaping it, especially since they had no idea of the consequences of imperfection, since they clearly were taught that the biggest consequence they faced was death.
2. This one place that Solomon was referring to? Is it heaven or is it hell? Or is it neither. The place all go to is "the grave", also known as Sheol and Hades. Jesus conquered death and the grave! He will complete the ministry of reconciliation. He IS the Saviour of ALL men!

We are guilty of making God in our own image...yet another violation of the law. IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

God bless all who read this with the knowlege of who He is, regardless of my ideas!