What Do You Say? by Jack D.

"THE IMMUTABILITY OF HIS COUNSEL." Heb. 6:17.

No failure is possible. What God's immutable counsel is, we see in 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance., where the original word translated "willing" is the same as "counsel" here. and

"HE HAS APPEARED TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF." Heb. 9:26.

Sin has intruded and caused an appearance of failure in God's plan. Christ comes to sweep sin away. When will our opponents meet fairly the dilemma, either Christ fails, or succeeds in His purpose. If He fails, you contradict Scripture. If He succeeds, you contradict your dogma. -Thomas Allin

He put away sin, he conquered death, he became the Savior of the world, He saved the lost, he saved sinners, and he will destroy the works of the devil, and he is in the Father reconciling the world unto himself. What do you say? Did he or did he not accomplish what he was sent by the Father to do? The prophets said he would, John the Baptist said He was in the process, and Jesus said He did. What do you say?

What About Free Will? By J.D.

It has been said that unless mankind has free will, we are nothing but robots and if we are nothing but robots, then God cannot get any satisfaction from our submission and love? This becomes the main rationale for excusing God from responsibility for eternally damning anyone.

It is said that God doesn’t send anyone to Hell but that we choose to go there by rejecting Jesus.

Let’s look at the evidence.

I see men in prison, who exercised their free will, but it conflicted with the will of others, and so their free will was severely limited by other men. Prison is seldom a free will choice, but is actually the result of other “free will” choices that were not acceptable to a more powerful system. How many people in prison would gladly leave if the doors were opened for them? Would it be fair to say that ninety percent would of their own free will leave prison if allowed to? We actually have a very humane prison system, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some chose to stay, “Three hots and cot” is the saying I’ve heard some of them say. Take away the three meals and the laundry service, the rest rooms, showers and the beds. Now how many would stay of their own free will? Perhaps a few mentally disabled? Now create a hostile environment, say, cause the temperature to rise above 140 degrees fahrenheit . Are any still remaining of their own free will? Not likely.
So what are we saying? Aren’t we really saying that people go to hell because they made a wrong choice? Nobody is going to Hell by their own free will to remain forever. The only way anyone could do that is to be mentally deranged, and God is the one who distributes mental capacity. So let’s explore the idea that people go to Hell for eternity for making a wrong choice. Does it not follow that for some to go to eternal hell for making a wrong choice, that the rest must have made a right choice? This scenario requires a right choice to get to heaven. True? Jesus told His disciples, “Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,. Joh 15:19 … I have chosen you out of the world…Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Let these clear words of Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, sink in. Go ahead, read this passage again carefully.

Predestinated – this is a loaded word. Our destination was already worked out by God Himself without our help in any way, shape or form. What is the destination mentioned? Adoption by Jesus unto Jesus himself! According to what? Our choice? NO! According to the good pleasure of HIS will. Wherein we have been accepted because of our right choice? NO! Wherein HE HATH MADE US ACCEPTED! Redemption through our good choice? NO! Through HIS Blood.

{If anyone believes that they are saved by their choice, they are somehow missing the clear teaching of Scripture and are in danger of being resisted by God. Our salvation is not by our will, not by our choice, not by our merit or work, lest any man should boast. It is a gift that is wholly unearned, undeserved and to think otherwise is pride. We are assured that God resists the proud.}

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: Here we have the assurance that God has made known exactly what His will is... His will that HE has purposed to accomplish! What is it??? That in the dispensation of the fulness of times ... that is at the end of time...he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him... Here we have God's will stated clearly enough along with the assurance that it is His purpose. Do you doubt His ability to accomplish His will? Is He like a mushy parent who won't assert His will to the destruction of His children? That is a very sad picture of God which contradicts the next verse: being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


I see children squabbling over a game or toy each attempting to exercise their free will, which is conflicting with the free will of their companions. Again, the exercise of free will is limited by the impact it has on others of another will. When Billy needs the only remaining red lego block to finish his space station, and Jill see’s the same block as essential to the assembling of her house, one must yield. Both cannot have their will. (Isn’t this the source of most of the conflict in the world since the beginning of time?) Conflicting wills. The North didn’t “want” slavery, the South wanted the slave system to continue. Hitler wanted to control the world, the allied forces didn’t want it Hitlers way.
I see children, whose free will is being limited by their parents because their parents love them and want the best for them. No, you can’t pierce your tongue; No, you may not get drunk; No, I insist that you do your chores; Put down that computer game; Turn off the T.V.; Eat your dinner; Don’t hang with that crowd, etc. Although all children are given free will, wise and loving parents guide their children to make wise choices.
What happens when one persons free will conflicts with another persons? Both cannot have their will. Either the stronger asserts his or her will on the weaker, or the stronger compromises his or her own will because they perceive that the weaker one has a better idea, or sometimes the stronger allows the weaker to have his or her will in order to allow the consequences of that choice to become the teacher. “Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.”

Yes, we have all been given “free will” and it comes from God. However, our free will is never without limitations. We may however, choose to reject God, disregard Jesus, curse God, reject our parents guidance, poison our minds, maim our bodies, and any number of things of this nature all of which bring consequences. Another word for consequences is judgments.

For instance, we may choose to reject our parents caution, and place our hand flat on the hot iron. Free will! The result is blistering pain. Most of God’s creatures conform their will at that point and purpose never to intentionally do that again.

The power of God is not to take away our free will, but to bring appropriate consequences when we violate His will that cause our will to be conformed to His better will.

Because we have a free will, God has designed judgments, that we all might eventually be conformed into His image, with our free will intact. To say that we must be allowed to have free will, that we be not robots is reasonable enough, but to say that God must allow us to continue in self destructive behavior, and that He, as a loving parent is not wise enough to prepare judgments that will ultimately turn us to Him, means that HE CANNOT HAVE HIS will.

Yes, God has free will too!

If anyone has free will it is God and He says He will have his way. Therefore, we must acknowledge that even though God has clearly given free will to us, He is most certainly able to refine us till our will becomes the same as His. Every knee shall bow. Yes all of His free will created ones shall willingly come to the point where they, without reservation, say with Jesus, not my will but thine, or to phrase it another way “Jesus is Lord”, and thereby become blessed forever.

Since our salvation has nothing to do with our free will, it follows that the judgment of Hell also has nothing to do with our free will. God, as a loving parent, has designed all His judgments with the purpose of conforming us to His will, which will be our deliverance. To say that God will send anyone to eternal torment, is to contradict in so many ways, the character of God, the will of God, the power of God and the Love of God.

Why do I think that this topic is worth the time I spend writing about it? Simply because it deals with our understanding of God himself. Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,

The false doctrine of Eternal Damnation is blasphemous to God and to Jesus. It teaches that Jesus did not accomplish the will of His Father. That God is not unchangeable. That God is not Love. That God is not smart enough or powerful enough to win our wills to willing submission to Himself. It screams out that LOVE FAILS. It does not glorify God as God..

This is the root of the most hideous sins which are prevalent in "Christianity" today. Read Romans 1:21 to the end of the chapter.

Change the way you think! Give God the Glory Due Unto His Name! Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints...

Who Has Been Given the MOST? by J.D.

Lu 12:48 … For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:..
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus has been given everything necessary to save every human being. God’s will is that not one should perish.This is God's requirement for Jesus. It is what the Father SENT THE SON TO DO! And He gave Him everything He needed to accomplish it! 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Jesus taught us to pray, Thy will be done on earth as it IS in heaven.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Ro 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Lu 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 1:29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever (pantote) liveth to make intercession for them.1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14 ¶ And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

So what exactly will be required of Jesus by God the Father? He gave Him all power and authority, He gave Him the keys to death and hades, He gave Him the power to save to the uttermost, we are saved not by our will but by the will of God, He gave Him the power to raise Himself from the dead. He gave Him all things. He sent him to save the world, to save sinners, to save the lost, to save Israel. Jesus said, If I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ALL unto me.IF JESUS ONLY WINS THE HEARTS OF A FEW BY THE LAST DAY, THEN JESUS HAS NOT MET THE BOASTS OF THE PROPHETS, NOR ACCOMPLISHED THE WILL OF HIS FATHER ACCORDING TO THE CLEAR PROCLAMATIONS OF SCRIPTURE. I don't know about you but I believe He has fulfilled perfectly every prophesy of Scripture and that He accomplished exactly what His Father sent Him to do. That would include ALL of His will, and that He is on track to bring every created being into submission to Himself by the end of time so that He might turn it all over to the Father who then will be ALL in ALL.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

I’m not making this up! God’s word is overflowing with the message of GOOD NEWS to ALL people. There are multitudes of clear affirmations of this truth throughout Scripture. The verses that seem to teach “eternal damnation” are few, and they tend to have simple translation issues. The problem is, if they are true then Jesus didn’t accomplish His Father’s clearly stated will. He didn’t do what he was sent to do. He either isn’t Love or He isn’t unlimited in power. Do you really think He is held powerless by the will of the worst of people. I have GOOD NEWS! He is the Savior of All! 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming…1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Trational Assumptions for our times by Tim L.

I have a poster on my office wall that came from who knows where of the inhabitants of earth leaving a burning city and fleeing one of two ways. A boatload of folks are following flashy neon arrows down a broad path into a deep crevice, presumably Hell. A few stragglers are crossing a narrow cross shaped bridge into a shining city, presumably Heaven. Those of us in the Church are so used to this symbolic crossing we don't stop ask ourselves how this could represent a victory for Christ! Christ wins a fraction and Satan wins the multitude. Is this the ultimate end or will these misguided multitudes ultimate become trophies for Christ? Here are a few other traditional assumptions:

1. Mercy triumphs over judgment...but only for a few. Does God really do a personality flip and switch from being a "judgment matches the crime" kinda God to an "unending torment for those who reject Him" persona?

2. His love endures forever...but for some its only a short experiment. The Bible says that this life is a vapor, so are those consigned to eternal torment only experiencing God's love as vaporous?

3. God is omniscient--all knowing...will he really continue to experience the grief of those billions in eternal torment while we are enjoying the blessing of heaven?

4. God is all powerful...but can't complete His stated desire to save all men. Is God really so passive as to let our "free will" carry us away from Him for eternity?

5. History is "His - story," He directs our steps...but is the real testimony of God's powerful hand on the time line that only a few lives have purpose, only a few will be refined, prepared and presented to Him complete?

These assumptions about our God fly in the face of the Biblical records! You will find clues throughout the Old and New Testaments concerning our just and merciful God. Are we to let tradition and a few mistranslated Greek words blind us to how wonderful a hope we can have for all the world?

Blessings!

The Effect of Excessive Discipline by Jack D.

case #1: Johnny! If you break any rule, I will have you locked in your room and beaten for a year as soon as your father gets home.

Poor Johnny, even though he wanted to be good, within a couple minutes has broken a rule. Now he knows he's getting the full brunt of the punishment when the time comes, so he might as well have at it the rest of the day. Since he is already going to pay the full price, he might as well get his money's worth. He may even try to run away, rejecting his parents.


case #2: Johnny. If you break a rule, I will have to discipline according to each offense. Johnny, I discipline you because your wrong actions are hurting you. The pain of discipline is to help you change your thinking so that you won't react in a harmful way in the future. A few minutes later, Johnny violates a rule. Appropriate discipline is given and though it hurts, Johnny is grateful for the maturity and cleansing it brings. He is left to consider his future actions will bring results according to his deeds. There is a healthy motivation for good behavior.

case #3 Johnny goes to the store with Mommy. Mommy say's "Johnny, don't touch anything. If you do, I will give you a swat for each thing you touch when we get home. A few minutes later, Johnny reaches out and touches some interesting artifact on a lower shelf. Mommy, looks at him and says, "That's one". A few minutes later as he reaches out and picks up another item of interest, Mommy says, Johnny! That's two.
I guarantee you, Johnny starts doing the math at a very young age.(As long as mom remembers and keeps her word.) A just punishment is extremely effective whereas an overly harsh punishment crushes the spirit and creates hatred, bitterness, and a breakdown in the relationship. God's stated work is to reconcile all to Himself,(2Cor 5:19) and he proclaims he will accomplish all his pleasure. (Isa 46:10)

How Much Can You Tolerate?

If you happened to be one of the myriads condemned to having to endure the horrors of eternal damnation, just how much could you tolerate? Could you tolerate the endless separation from love? The endless smoke and black darkness? The endless burning of flesh and stench? The endless hopelessness? The endless agony of pain and aching? The unceasing screams and groans of men, women and children as wave after wave of new torments sweep through the pain wracked bodies? The continual spewing of curses and profanity wretching out of the twisted mouths of your companions in misery? Where would this become intolerable to you? Maybe, if you are hard and tough, d'ya think you could tolerate this for an hour? A day? A week? How bout a month? Perhaps a year or two? A decade? A century? A millennium? Would it become intolerable to you after the first thousand millenniums, when you realize that you've expended no more of your sentence than the first second, indeed not even the smallest fraction of your sentence has been served, nor ever shall be? How could such a sentence be tolerable? Yet, we have these testimonies of Jesus in Matthew:

Mt 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mt 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Mr 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Note that the phrase “more tolerable” implies tolerability in both cases. In other words, whatever judgment is being referred to here is tolerable for one and more tolerable for the other. Also note that in both cases, the judgment is given a time limit, it is “The day of judgment”. (Not the eternity of judgment.) Note also that one of those being judged is Sodom, of whom it is written,

“Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

We know that the burning of Sodom only lasted a very short time. It was hot and fast. So in this judgment, the victims received mercy as soon as they died in the form of respite from the flames. We find here in Matthew, that when the “day of judgment” arrives, it will be more tolerable for Sodom than for the religious leaders of Jesus day. Then in Ezekiel 16:46-63 it is clear that God is going to restore Sodom to fellowship with Himself, so Sodom becomes a perfect example of what eternal fire is really talking about. It would all be so much less confusing if the translators only were faithful to the meaning of the word aionios and aion. Then we would find Sodom to be an example suffering the vengeance of age pertaining fire. Everything would line up. But as it is we are left to decide that eternal doesn't mean without end or it isn't the correct word.

Anyway you slice it, we find God judging rightly, giving punishment where needed for correction and not just to be cruel. The judgment will always be just, that is, it will suit the crime and serve to restore the sinner to a place where he can be blessed.

Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Do Men Go To Hell By Their Own Free Choice?

We have been given limited free will and this ingredient in our lives, largely makes up the individuality of each person. Some are given larger portions of free will than others. For instance, some are born with or aquire great wealth, which gives them more options than some who are stricken with poverty and physical and mental handicaps. Nevertheless, as I mentioned, all free will is limited by God’s withholding of power or ability to accomplish all our will. In spite of the fact that we do have free will, it can be demonstrated from Scripture that our will is not given the latitude to decide our salvation. God takes full responsibility for that. This becomes significant when we ponder the possibility of any created being getting placed into eternal damnation with all its horrors. Consider the following verses, how they give to God the responsibility and glory for any ones salvation.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Mt 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,

2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

It is clear "who" does the saving. It is clear, we can’t even take credit for making the right choice. (Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me ).

Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

SWITCHING GEARS


“If God saved you, start to finish, if He who began a good work in you will finish it, what will stop Him from saving the rest of the world?” Where does it say, once you die, there is no more chance? Not in Romans: “Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life….shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ps 29:2 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
Even now some reading this, can not see that God could be this great, this good. This too, is God’s doing.
That is precisely why God will fit each time of purging exactly to the need of each of His created ones. (What would you think of the father of a blind child punishing that child for not seeing?)

What did Jesus mean?: Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is God worse than a publican? Did you catch that? The references to this action of loving our enemies making us like the Father? Perfect? Will God who never changes lose His perfect love? NEVER! If somehow allowing the masses to be tormented without end equates to love, then light equates to darkness and truth equates to lies. We have no basis for understanding anything. THIS JUST ISN”T TRUE. God is LOVE. PERIOD.
God Himself takes responsibility for every mans destiny, and He clearly teaches that He will save all. Why do some insist that He won’t or can’t? He can, and He will!

Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.